Reinventing Proof-of-Work for Scale with Quai Network feat. Co-Founder Dr. K

GM GM and Happy New Year. Welcome to what's going to be another fantastic episode of DevNTell. So if you didn't know, DevNTell is a 30-minute podcast held every week, allowing founders, hackers, anyone in between, an opportunity to come on the show and showcase their product. And today, I'm ecstatic to welcome Dr. K, who is the co-founder and CTO of Quai Network. So if you don't know, Quai Network is an EVM-compatible, scalable Proof-of-Work Layer 1 that is introducing the hash dollar to the world. So if you stick around for today's episode, you'll get to meet Dr. K, learn about Quai Network, and how you can get started today. All right, let's get into it.

GM GM and Happy New Year, Dr. K. Welcome to the show, ecstatic to have you on, man.

Yeah, Happy New Year to you too.

Excellent, excellent. Uh, yeah, thank you so much for, uh, taking the, uh, time out of your, uh, day, uh, to come chat with us. Uh, really excited to learn about Quai Network. I know a lot of folks tuning in today are as well, uh, but, uh, I guess before we get into all that good stuff you have prepared for us, uh, would you like to give a brief introduction for yourself?

Uh, sure. Yeah, my name's Dr. K. Uh, been in the crypto space at least as a hobbyist since about 2012. I've been working full-time since 2017. Uh, kind of got my full-time start at ConsenSys, at a spin-out called Grid Plus, designed and built the Lattice1 hardware wallet. Uh, sometime in 2018, I came up with this concept of how to scale Proof-of-Work blockchain. So, uh, managed to actually get a National Science Foundation grant to work on that as sort of like a research project that was after I graduated with my doctorate in engineering. So it was kind of like a postdoc project, kind of thing. Uh, and that eventually turned into a full-time thing. So, uh, I've been working on Quai full-time since 2022. Uh, and it took us from concept in 2018 to implementation or mainnet, took about seven years. Full-time it was about three years to sort of implement Quai. Uh, yeah, so that's kind of my background, at least in crypto. Uh, yeah.

Awesome, awesome. And yeah, uh, I guess what was the, the compelling thing, um, that kind of brought you into the world of crypto? Like, what was the thing, the, like, 'Oh, wow, this is like really cool' kind of moment that, yeah, like made you want to be here full-time?

Yeah, so from my perspective, right, Satoshi really just summed it up in the title of the white paper, peer-to-peer electronic cash, right? Um, and the sort of libertarian underpinnings of that and obviously relating that with Proof-of-Work, meaning you have like a physics-based money or an energy-based money in some way, um, certainly answers a lot of the questions related to rampant sort of monetary policy and political corruption. So, you know, all of those sort of ideas about, you know, money, politics, and society and individual freedom is what drew me into the space. In terms of kind of where I saw it go after really like 2017 is, um, you know, it's a very technically challenging problem, but I don't think the industry was going down a path of fulfilling that sort of promise of peer-to-peer electronic cash. If it was, you know, privacy not being there or scale not being there while maintaining some form of decentralization. Um, so that ultimately led me to want to develop Quai, which is, um, you know, a scalable Proof-of-Work system. So sort of maintain the really good characteristics of Bitcoin ala Proof-of-Work, relating the minting cost of a token to actual energetic input costs, as well as having a relatively decentralized system, but taking that to scale so you can actually use it as peer-to-peer electronic cash, and then obviously to do that you also need some privacy features. But that is kind of wanting to actually see that vision brought to true life is really what motivated me to start Quai.

Awesome. And, uh, you didn't found Quai Network alone, right? Uh, there's a couple of co-founders, if I'm not mistaken, that, uh, came along for the journey with you. And, uh, in particular, at the University of Austin, as you mentioned, I find that really interesting, like how such a big network kind of started out of a university. Like that's not usually the traditional startup route, right? Uh, would you want to get into that just a little bit? Like to hear that, that kind of story there.

Uh, yeah, so I got my engineering degree at UT. Um, so I finished in like early '17, um, my doctorate. And I kind of came up with this idea of how to scale Proof-of-Work in '18 and I shared it with one of the professors that I knew at UT. Um, so he kind of had a research group in electrical engineering, um, you know, looking at distributed systems. So he was like, 'Yeah, let's, um, you know, start looking at this.' So he had a couple of grad students, a couple of undergrad students, um, and we kind of started working on it and got that National Science Foundation grant and, um, yeah, and then eventually in '22 we managed to raise money from Polychain Capital, which allowed us to really go like full-time into it with a much bigger team. So that's kind of, kind of how it started, yeah.

Cool, cool. Yeah, that's amazing. Uh, and yeah, I guess no better time than now to kind of get into the details of this. Um, so, uh, one of the big things I've seen, um, reading up on Quai Network is this notion of Proof-of-Entropy Minima, POEM for short. Um, can you just explain what that is and, um, why you think, why you guys think this is better than traditional Proof-of-Work?

Yeah, so to get to POEM, um, I just need to give a little bit of a background. Um, so Quai is a hierarchy of merge-mined blockchains. So essentially what we do is, um, if you're familiar with like a super-block, um, it's kind of like this concept when you're mining a block you can hit a difficulty, right? If you hit the difficulty, you find a block. Um, but then you can have a concept of a super-block which is, instead of just meeting the block difficulty, what if I meet the block difficulty plus like five extra zeros, right? Then what we can do with that is we can make like a super-chain. So you kind of have like this lower chain and then you have like an upper chain and you have a chain above that. We call that Prime, Region, and Zone. And then what that allows us to do is it allows us to actually create a pyramid of chains where Prime is at the top, then you have Regions below that, and you have Zones below that. Um, now then what ends up happening is as a miner you have to sort of operate a slice, meaning anytime you propose a header you have to propose a Prime, Region, and Zone sort of composite header. And then depending on what difficulty you get, you'll either get a Zone block, a Zone-Region block, or a Zone-Region-Prime block. And that's how you have sort of like multiple threads, but they're all working on a common consensus layer which is just Proof-of-Work. And what POEM does is it allows a deterministic outcome without multiple rounds of communication. So in traditional Proof-of-Work, you can get a fork, right? Um, and basically what happens is it's a natural thing the system sees because once you find a block it takes time to propagate throughout that system. During that propagation time, someone else may find a block. Just like a very super honest orphan as we might think of it in Bitcoin, or an uncle in Ethereum. Um, and so the problem with that though is that you'll eventually get resolution, but it takes time. And so as we add more of these threads so to speak, more of these shards, the ability to wait to get like the canonical tip limits the total number of shards you can have because if I'm in one shard and like statistically maybe it takes me sort of like 30 seconds to kind of know that we're all in agreement and then I have another shard and it takes 30 seconds to know that we have agreement. Now when I start trying to go back and forth and this aggregate, I have this like aggregate composite agreement time which may be like a couple of minutes, right? And then as I keep adding shards like it just gets longer and longer and longer in time. So what you really want to do is you want to make sure that your consensus mechanism is deterministic so we don't have to have rounds of communication and sort of statistical convergence. We want to converge as quickly as physically possible. So basically what POEM does instead of just measuring or rewarding blocks, um, you know, the difficulty threshold, it uses, um, the whole hash, basically. And we basically take the field size minus the whole hash and we take a log of that and then we call that bits. So, you know, a Bitcoin block has like 60 leading zeros. So that would be like 60 bits. But depending on sort of how lucky you get when you find a block, you'll get some fractional bits. So it'll be like 61.25684, you know, whatever to whatever precision you took your logarithm, right? Or you might even get lucky and you find 64.89257 bits. But the interesting part here is because you're maintaining, um, the, um, sort of randomness of the field, you basically have a guarantee that everyone will choose the same winner, um, to the point of a hash collision. So like if two blocks are mined, unless they like literally collide hash, there will be one better block than the other and the betterness or the weightiness of that block adds up over the sequence, if that makes sense. So what POEM does is it allows a deterministic fork-choice rule that is also compatible with extending not just one but many chains simultaneously.

Wow. Yeah, that's amazing and, um, that I suppose that took quite a bit of, um, testing on a testnet and a lot of, a lot of back and forth and revisions until it got right, right? And, uh...

Yeah, well, so what ended up happening to be honest is, you know, so Quai kind of like evolved over, over time, right? Um, the very first thing that like started Quai was the concept of just the hierarchy merge-mined chains. And we kind of like built that. And then when we got there, we hadn't really thought too deeply about consensus. We had come up with something that we called the Hierarchical Longest Chain rule, which was basically saying like, we'll pick the heaviest Prime, then heaviest Region, then like heaviest Zone sequentially. But that actually creates like a, um, like an unresolvable loop if you have many chains that are propagating in time. So you can get these situations where you're sort of like trying to compete with the chains and you need to resolve who the leader is because in this system like Prime is not the leader. Prime is the follower, right? The leaders are simultaneously all of the Zone chains. Right? So it's a, it's a multi-leader system. And the nature of that multi-leader system required us to figure out a way to create a deterministic choice rule that would be compatible with having many leaders. Right? And that's kind of where POEM came from. So we actually built the system and spent like a couple of years putting it together before we realized we needed something like POEM and we were just lucky enough that we could figure something out that actually kind of worked. Um, there, there's sort of like an interesting like a knife's edge that we're kind of balancing on and that, you know, depending on like how academic or, you know, how theoretically minded you get, um, there's this concept of like synchrony versus asynchrony. It would be our sort of, um, assertion that we're very much on the edge of asynchrony here because you have a many-leader system and then this rule will always resolve out once everybody sees the data. So given consistency, we can guarantee consensus. And that like technically should barely exist within sort of the theoretical frameworks that have been proven within information systems. So we kind of got lucky I guess would be the statement.

Hey man, sometimes you just need to get lucky that one time, right? So, um, and, and yeah, I guess a couple, couple things before we move on. So, um, just curious like what, um...

Like most of the, at least on the Ethereum side of things, most of the industry has moved on from Proof-of-Work to Proof-of-Stake. Like what was, what was the determining factor from your guys's end where you're like, 'No, we don't think Proof-of-Stake is the future' and you guys wanted to iterate on Proof-of-Work?

Yeah, so there's kind of like, um, there's kind of like a very visceral sort of divide between Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake. Um, and it has to do with the fact that Proof-of-Work at least instantaneously is hard money, right? So like in a Proof-of-Work system, so like let's talk about gold, right? What gives gold value? The thing that fundamentally gives gold value is the energy that goes into finding, mining, and refining it. So over time, sort of the market value of gold is the cost of producing gold. Um, in Proof-of-Work at least instantaneously that is true. Uh, so like if you look at Bitcoin, right, the cost of making a Bitcoin is the cost of a Bitcoin instantaneously. Like that's kind of it, trends to that. So that property of hard money, um, you know, is very much part of it, right? And then the property of immutability, meaning, um, economic immutability, right? So something just becomes inordinately expensive with time to ever go back and change versus, you know, having a committee being able to effectively resign some things to change history, uh, which doesn't have a high economic cost. Um, that's kind of initially what, you know, kept us focused on Proof-of-Work. But what I will say is the nature of POEM and the nature that it is uniquely derivable from work and really nothing else, um, actually makes Proof-of-Work much more scalable and much faster. Um, I cannot find an analogue in Proof-of-Stake that would allow a many-leader system like we can do with POEM. So you can't even scale Proof-of-Stake to the same degree that you can scale Proof-of-Work. Um, and one other way to think about that is with POEM, um, we never have to talk about which block to pick. We just need to broadcast the blocks to each other. With Proof-of-Stake we have to talk about it, right? So like I have to get a proposal, I have to sign it, then I have to send it to you, then you have to sign it, and then we have to aggregate the signatures and be like, 'Okay, quorum, now we're good.' With Proof-of-Work it's a broadcast-only system. So like once the block hits everybody's nodes, like because the rule is deterministic, we all know that we're in agreement. So there's no need to talk, we just need to make sure that we get all the blocks, right? So it's a much, much faster consensus mechanism and it's a consensus mechanism that allows the sharding because it's deterministic. You can't recreate that in Proof-of-Stake. And if you try to, you actually get a system that turns back into mining, because I've thought about this actually quite a bit. So if you try to use signatures to do this, you would actually get people grinding signatures. Um, so it would devolve right back into mining.

Fascinating, fascinating. Yeah. And, and yeah, I guess you kind of touched on it as you were explaining, but just the scalability factor. Um, I was reading up on your documentation that, um, this, uh, POEM consensus mechanism kind of, uh, solves the blockchain trilemma, right, of being able to kind of scale a blockchain. Uh, so, uh, is that true?

Yeah, so, so basically what happens is within that hierarchy you kind of have different, um, parameters, um, so to speak, in like your sort of trilemma. But because it's all in one system, you get like the best of everything because you can put points in multiple parts of the triangle, um, if that kind of makes sense. Um, so what, what ends up allowing us to scale, right, is we have like a Zone chain and we're operating those at five-second blocks. Um, and so you can get, you know, Visa-Mastercard-like, um, settlement times in a, in one of these chains. Um, and then, you know, one of those chains we can do around 700, we can probably go more than that per chain. Um, but let's just say 700 for right now. Now then what, what's interesting is because of POEM and because of this hierarchy once you have like a chain fully saturated you just kind of add another chain. And they coordinate via the next sort of what we call a dominant chain, so a Region or Prime. And so you can just keep the system expanding and all these chains are still interoperable with each other because they're all still running the Region and Prime chains together.

Now, the sacrifice here is that if I want to do a cross-chain transaction in these Zones, there's some clearing time for that. But if we went to say like the whole Western world is using this thing, sort of your worst case, what I wouldn't call confirmation time, I'd call it settlement time which is different, is about 90 minutes. So if you're sort of like in the worst case farthest Zone away from me in the world and I try to send you money in this, um, situation where everybody with internet is like using Quai as a means of payment, um, you would in five seconds know that I paid you money. But it might take 90 minutes for you to get that money in a way that you can respend it, if that makes sense. So that's like the sacrifice. But that again is if you're doing 100,000 transactions per second constantly and you're at this like 100-shard topology, you might have to wait 90 minutes to be able to respend your money. You're still going to get that five-second payment guarantee, but you'll take 90 minutes to spend it.

Now, compare that to today, when you actually like pay a merchant with a credit card, it can take them 90 days to see that money, right? Um, so you know, I, I don't think, um, like that 90-minute sacrifice is actually a sacrifice at all, right? As long as you're getting an economic sort of confirmation within five seconds, like you're good. It's just waiting 90 minutes to be able to respend. There's very, very few economic use cases that need that high a velocity of money, so we don't even really see it as a compromise to be honest.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a compromise to me. It sounds, I mean, it's better than a wire transfer. Um, and, and yeah, like you said, 90, 90 minutes versus 90 days, it's a 90-day difference. Uh...

Yeah. Well, and the other thing too is what, what we see is that the way the system is set up is it actually encourages geographic subnetting relative to the shards. Um, from both a node and miner perspective, as well as a transactor perspective. So what you might see is that, you know, as the system grows, maybe the East Coast is in one shard and the West Coast is in another, right? So then when you're in New York and you're buying your bagel because you're from New York, um, not only are you going to get a confirmation in five seconds, the merchant's going to receive their money in five seconds. It's only when you go to like the West Coast, it might take 20 seconds, and then when you go to China it might take like a minute for the merchant to actually get the money, but they'll still know that they're getting the money within five seconds, right? So that like 90-minute problem is only going to be like the absolute worst case when you're kind of in a very unoptimized situation, but the incentive of both the users and the node runners is to aggregate together, right? So in most cases, even with the system scales, 95% of the time you're still not only going to be getting confirmations in five seconds, you're going to get settlement in five seconds because you're going to be in a common shard.

That's amazing. That's, that's pretty nifty, not gonna lie.

Um, and, uh, I guess shifting gears just a bit, um, to the development side of things. Um, it, uh, seems like, uh, Quai Network is an EVM-compatible, uh, chain as well. So, um, for the EVM developers watching today, how easy is it, um, for them to take their existing smart contracts and deploy it on Quai Network? Is there, is there any, um, uh, anything that the EVM doesn't support on Quai, Quai Network?

Uh, so the only difference is that we have a sharded address space. Um, so we have, um, variations of Hardhat and VM that like allow people to sort of port their contracts over, um, they just have to deal with the fact that we're in a sharded address space. So the way that sort of this hierarchy works, and, and this kind of gets into a meta, these technically aren't different chains. Uh, they're all actually sharing a common state root, um, and it's divided by the first, um, two-byte prefix, right? So, a 00 is sort of the first shard, a 01 on address is the second shard, a 02, you know, so on and so forth. Um, but, but that means you actually technically have like one state root that you're updating across like the whole system even though it's technically sharded, it's just which chain has permission to update what part of the state root, right? Um, so, so that's kind of the complexity that's added. It's just the, as a developer you have to use kind of our tooling because we deal with sharded addresses um, and correctly.

Now, right now, right, this, this system expands dynamically. So currently there's only one shard in the system because we're not at 700 TPS yet. Um, the system dynamically understands its uncle rate and as the uncle rate increases, it allows another shard to take place. So basically the uncle rate is like a, it's an indicator that this shard is full and we need another shard. So the system automatically adds shards as the uncle rate gets above a certain threshold for like a period of time, so then it just expands. Now, all of the, like cross-shard interactions, you can do them, uh, between contracts, but you have to specify like what your sister contract is. So right now, deploying in a single-shard setting, it looks pretty much like a copy-paste for EVM like contracts. Um, if you want to support a multi-shard setting in anticipation then when we shard, um, you can do that as well, you just have to right basically create like a list of sister contracts when you deploy this contract, and then when the new shard gets deployed you have to deploy the sister contract. Um, but that, that's about it. So like for 90% of people unless they're like very forward-looking, they don't need to worry about the sharding at all, um, for the other people they just have to use kind of the tooling that we have to deploy in the first shard.

Gotcha, gotcha. And yeah, uh, to this point, uh, my follow-up question was, um, whether or not there are any available, um, SDKs or specialized tools for, um, people to pick up and learn and play around with Quai Network.

Yeah, so right now we have, uh, what we call Quais. Um, it's a fork of Ethers. Um, it's a fork of it was originally a fork of Ethers 6, um, V6. Um, we've modified it a bit obviously for, for our purposes. Um, we have like a much better subscription model. Ethere, honestly, like the, the way Ethereum use its endpoints is utter madness. Um, we think we've done a little bit of a better job. So you actually have instead of like a pulling model, right? So if you, if you use Ethers or use any of like the SDKs, they don't actually use subscriptions. It might look like you're subscribing to something, but like behind the, the SDK layer they're actually running a pulling on the node. So like if you're like, 'I want to know my balance,' you're just asking a node for your balance every 10 seconds, which is like wild in terms of that amount of overhead that induces on the nodes. We actually have like subscriptions. So like you subscribe to addresses or you subscribe to contracts, and then the node like will update you and it will leave that connection lively, you know, for, you know, 30 minutes or whatever, and then you'll have to refresh the connection, but you only have to like refresh it on the timeout, you don't sit here like pulling all the time. So you can lower your, your requests by like a thousand or more, 10,000X, right? Um, but otherwise, from the user's perspective it looks pretty much identical to Ethers, it just has our own sort of like namespace.

Right on, right on. Uh, good stuff. And, um, I guess in terms of, um, like the, uh, the long-term vision of, of Quai Network. Is there anything that you can, you can share, um, on the, the roadmap, um, for looking into this year?

Um, yeah, so I mean basically the interesting thing about Quai is, right, we can do stuff in, we can build applications with Web3 that look like Web2. But we're doing it on a Proof-of-Work system and that Proof-of-Work system is scalable. So from a developer's perspective, the reason that Quai is very interesting is because if you look at Ethereum, when it gets sort of a hit application, um, fees precipitously rise and that sort of hamstrings that application's growth. Um, so much so that a lot of Ethereum's apps have started to go onto app chains, right? Uniswap being, being a great example. Um, you know, there's plenty of them but but maybe that's the most recent one. Um, right, the thing with Quai is because we can shard, because we can scale, if you're developer and you build an app, the network grows with your app. And so you're kind of guaranteed this sort of one cent per transaction availability today, tomorrow, and in five years, right? So that's sort of like a super powerful thing. And we've been building applications on Quai that take advantage of that. Um, one such application we have is called Kipper. Um, it's pretty cool, it's like a tipping app on X. Um, you can use it on desktop, there's also, um, um, you can use it on Android, there's an app, there's a beta on iOS. We're having issues getting it through their store, but it's really cool. You basically can go if you like, you can set when you like a tweet, you actually like send somebody one Quai. Or you can tip them and, you know, write a message and then your reply actually shows up at the top of their feed. Um, kind of like highlighted in things. So, you know, but that's just an example of what you can do when you have that like very guaranteed sort of low-fee high-throughput system.

Um, another thing that we've done, um, which is very interesting economically with this system is called SOMA, um, a Subsidy Open Market Acquisition protocol. Um, basically what that is is we're merge-mining, um, with, um, Litecoin, Dogecoin, um, Bitcoin Cash, and Ravencoin now. Um, and so basically what ends up happening though, which makes this different from merge-mining is, um, um, we only pay the miner Quai and the merge-mine token comes back to sort of like a foundation address. That address then liquidates the secondary token to buy Quai at market. So what that does is it actually creates much better, um, Proof-of-Work economics for us because you don't have constant miner sell pressure. But the reason that we can do that is because we're in this very high-speed high-throughput Proof-of-Work system and all of these other Proof-of-Work systems are much, much slower. So we can kind of take advantage of what we like to think of as underutilized hash rate to increase our security for free. Um, right, so we basically have like a net-neutral emissions at this point. Right? Because if we pay out a hundred dollars worth of Quai, we're getting a hundred dollars of another token back. So like on a net-net basis, we don't even pay for our security. Like it's free for us. Um, like we might be paying like 2% or something, but it's, it's like a tiny amount, right? Um, we're also launching something soon that's kind of an extension of that where Quai just becomes like a pool. But it can become a pool for any chain that exists. Um, so those are like more examples of applications that you could just build because Quai's high-speed and scalable. Um, yeah.

Yeah that, yeah, I mean Quai Network is, yeah, it sounds like quite, quite the beast of a network and, um, yeah like you mentioned there's lots of opportunities for people to build, um, on it. Um, I guess from that perspective, um, are there any grant opportunities or, or, um, upcoming hackathons or anything like that to make it, um, uh, to, to entice, uh, developers to, to get on the, the Quai Network train?

Yeah, so we have, uh, we have grants, uh, and we have retroactive grants. So if you go to our docs page, you can find out all about our grants. Um, yeah, I mean we have, you know, people who've built NFT marketplaces, they've built, um, you know, like Uniswap type things, they've built pump.fun type things. Um, the, the, there's a couple that we're, we're more excited about too. Um, and if someone wants to work on it, um, that'd be amazing. Um, basically one of the, the implications of SOMA, which is very interesting, is we end up getting, uh, loose referencing to the blockchains which we merge-mine with. So that actually creates a mechanism by which you could trustlessly wrap any of those tokens in and out of Quai, um, without needing like a custodial intermediary. So basically like Bitcoin can sort of be wrapped into Quai. Bitcoin Cash can be wrapped into Quai. Dogecoin can be wrapped into Quai, right? So if somebody kind of wants to build that service where you could go back and forth between those assets, that'd be super interesting. If someone doesn't do it, we're going to end up doing it, because what we'd like to see is, um, the SOMA revenue we get sort of guarantees volume every day. Right? We're doing like 20,000 or so in volume every day, um, in Proof-of-Work. So right now we're having to clear that volume through centralized exchanges. But if we can have that wrapping service, we'd like to clear all of that volume through a DEX that runs on Quai. Um, would be pretty cool. And then the cool part is that volume goes up with our hash rate. And as our hash rate goes up, we get more subsidy which buys back more token, right? So then our price goes up. And then when the price goes up, the hash rate goes up, which gets us more subsidy. So it's this cool sort of virtuous loop of sort of increasing hash and price which hasn't like ever existed in Proof-of-Work, it's always been the opposite which is, um, you know, miners mine, they have to sell to cover costs, um, and like causes the token price to go down unless you can get more new buyers than you're having to sell to cover your security every day. So, like we're really excited about SOMA because it really changes the, the economic game. I think it actually makes Proof-of-Work, um, more economically like robust than Proof-of-Stake at that point because even within Proof-of-Stake, you still got to pay 3 or 4% to your stakers. In this case we're getting security but like we're net neutral. Which is pretty cool.

Yeah, that, that is pretty cool. And, uh, yeah, for anybody who's watching today or, or listening, um, like there's notions of opportunity on Quai Network and we, I mean, building a DEX that's a money printing machine. So...

Well build, build a DEX with guaranteed flow. So like right now we're doing $20,000 a day between those pairs, right? But, you know, if our price goes up again, we'll be doing $40,000 a day, guaranteed every day that like you got to clear. Right? So, um, you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of opportunity there.

Indeed, indeed there is. And I guess, um, just before we let you go here, um, what's the best way for folks to kind of keep up to date with all the latest and greatest from Quai Network and, and yourself?

Yeah, um, so they can follow, uh, Quai, it's @QuaiNetwork on X. Um, they can also follow me, um, my handle's @mechanical_k, spelled K-E-A-L K at the end. Um, if you want to learn about the grants program or you want to learn more about Quai, just go to docs.quai.ai. Um, you'll find all the resources you need to, um, run a node, develop an app, mine, um, get a grant. So, yeah.

Amazing. And yeah, we will have all those resources for you in the description below. Um, so definitely check that out. Um, get involved in Quai Network, check out the docs, start building things, move over some smart contracts from the EVM world to here. And, uh, yeah, I'm really excited to see, uh, Quai Network continue to, to grow here. And, uh, thank you again, Dr. K, so much for taking the time out of your busy day to chat with us today.

Appreciate it.

Of course, of course. Uh, no problem. Uh, with that, I wish everybody a, uh, very Happy New Year again. Uh, happy weekend, wherever you may be. Uh, and we will catch you back here for another episode of DevNTell next week. Until then, have a good one, folks.

Appreciate it.

Of course. No problem.