Go-To-Market for Crypto Startups: How Web3 Teams Acquire Users

GM, GM. Welcome to what's going to be another fantastic episode of DevNTell. So, if you didn't know, DevNTell is a 30-minute podcast held every week, allowing founders, hackers, and anyone in between the opportunity to come on the podcast and showcase what they built. And today, I am ecstatic to welcome back Mac Budkowski to the show, who is an experienced founder and Web3 startup consultant. Mac has worked on a lot of communication projects with companies like Intel, IKEA, Pfizer, PepsiCo, and Mastercard, as well as helping a bunch of Web3 startups build up their product in the Ethereum ecosystem. So Mac comes in with a wealth of experience in the startup scene. So if you stick around for today's episode, you'll get to meet Mac and learn about go-to-market strategies to help your users gain users for your crypto product. All right, let's get into it.

GM, GM. Welcome back to the show, Mac. I am ecstatic to have you back here on, man.

Yeah, yeah. Hello, Narb. And yeah, it's been a pleasure last time, so I'm pretty sure it's going to be fun today as well.

Of course, of course, man. And yeah, especially this particular topic that we're going to go over today, I think is going to be very, very valuable, not only to crypto startup founders but I think founders in general, especially with how far along a lot of AI tools have come and basically made everybody a founder at heart. But before we get into all that, would you just like to give a brief introduction about yourself?

Yeah, yeah, I'm Mac. Some of you might know me from Kiwii. We were guests, I think like a year ago or something like that, where I was like a co-founder of Kiwii. Before that, I used to run a podcast, kind of like this one, where I invited founders and builders and tried to reverse engineer how they built their projects. It was called Web3 Talks. And now I'm mostly helping with product, growth, and BD, so basically like anything in between. Like we have this nice stack, and we want to have a lot of quality users, so I try to get from one point A to point B. So that's basically my work.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I believe you are correct, it was about I think a year, year or so ago, you and your co-founder from Kiwii came on, which was a great episode in itself. And I guess for folks who might not have tuned into that one, like how did you find yourself in the crypto and Web3 scene and technology scene in general?

Yeah, so starting with tech, oh my god, I think I was like five or six years old when my father had this like IBM PC, you know, it was like a giant screen, like a big, big computer that he had at his office. So he brought it for the weekend from the office, so you know, he took like this big computer and got it to the fourth floor, and the only desk big enough was in our living room, so he just set it up there. And you know, we played Wolfenstein on that PC, so that was a lot of fun, and I got hooked as a kid. And a few years later, me and my brother, we got our own PC from parents, and you know, I don't know if you remember, probably yes, because back then computers were way more complicated. You needed some DOS commands, you needed to know how to crack or mod some games, you needed to buy parts yourself and assemble a PC if you wanted some good computer and you didn't have that much money. So I tried to learn by, you know, helping my older brother figure it out.

But regarding crypto, I joined way later than I wish, I guess most people think that, especially like trading wise. But you know, I had many hacker libertarian friends, and they were talking about Bitcoin since like, I don't know, 2013, maybe earlier even. But to me, it felt like a very crazy idea to build your own currency, so I dismissed that. And then, you know, a few years later, COVID hit, and you know, we were all stuck at home for like 12 hours a day looking at computers, and I was like so bored, and I just couldn't find new things to do, and I was like okay, like maybe now it's time to get into crypto and just read more. So I called one of these hacker libertarian friends, and he's like oh no, Bitcoin's not a thing anymore, he's like buy Ethereum, it will go up, it's like a really good tech. So just like every crypto trader, I just bought an asset and then started doing research, so that's exactly what I did. So I bought some ETH, and I was like okay, now it's time to learn something. And I started, you know, reading blog posts, listening to Vitalik podcast interviews, read the white paper, did some CryptoZombies course, watched YouTube videos, hung out on like 47 Discord channels trying to figure out what's going on. And like then I understood okay, this technology makes sense, it's not a scam, I see what's the idea here. And then I was like okay, I want to build something here, but I'm not sure exactly what I want to build because crypto felt very different from normal startups. So that's why I did this like Web3 Talks podcast, because I was like okay, let's speak with founders, learn from them what they build, and maybe I will get some inspiration. So yeah, that's long story short.

Yeah, man. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the having a podcast like this or like yours, like you get to speak to people in the trenches, so to speak, like the ones that are actually building like the the awesome products like people will eventually use, right? And I too find it very interesting to to pick people's brains and and like kind of get the the background story and inspiration as well. But so so that's kind of like your the Web3 crypto side, but you also have quite the background in helping big name companies with their com strategies as well. Just skimming through your personal website, did you want to briefly just touch on that as well?

Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting maybe to understand where I come from. So like my whole adult career I spent at this intersection of product, growth, and BD. So you know, when I was young I wanted to be a writer, but then I learned that if you are a writer you can be poor and homeless and like unemployed. So I felt like okay, then I learned there's a thing called copywriting where you, you know, help companies write ads, websites, brochures, everything. So this is what I did as a freelancer in college. And then I got into this like very small research market research startup. They were like I think four, three or four people back then. And I was interning there, but like our CEO was a guy who was my professor in college and he was known for being this like giving people a lot of responsibility. So he was like, oh yeah, we have a new website, could you help design it? And like oh, we have this sales presentation that we use at client's meeting, could you help with that? And I was like, you know, I was just like an intern but I was like yeah, like okay, let's try. And like this guy, he was this like black belt B2B sales guy. Like he had like 20 years of experience in B2B sales. So just by being in a room with him and like listening to his calls, you know, when he's on a phone and speaking with clients, like I learned a lot because I learned like the way he thinks, and sometimes I asked him follow-up questions like why did you do that, this and that. So that was very interesting, but you know, it was just summer internship, so after two months I got back to college. This company, by the way, right now is one of the biggest market research companies in Poland, so I guess this guy's sales was pretty solid.

And later on I went to this high-tech telecom startup. So I was the only person without engineering degree there. Like everyone was at least an engineer, our CEO had a PhD in telecommunications, so it was like a hardcore R&D company. And here CEO was like kid, you know, like go figure out growth. And like okay. But here the problem was that the CEO like he said that he's not good at growth, so I should figure it out myself. So I didn't have this mentor, and you know, I was scared because I had a lot of responsibility but I didn't have anyone to ask for, you know, help or feedback. So I started reading books, watching YouTube videos, you know, blog posts, speaking with people who were more experienced than me and just trying to navigate that. And that that worked, I mean like our sales went very nicely, I got promoted, I got a raise and so on. But you know, like although I was involved in many things like, you know, website, branding, positioning, newsletter, ads, global BD program and so on, it was interesting in that regards, but the product was not that interesting for people without telecom degree, because these were like LTE simulators for R&D scientists, it was like very, very abstract.

So I left and and then like I got a call from my friend Mike, who just started his company which was back then just explainer video company and he's like do you want to join and help with marketing and sales. I'm like I don't know, like I will just join part-time and see if I like it because I learned that if I don't like the product then it might not be that interesting. But what I found fascinating is that when companies came for explainer videos, but they actually came for something way bigger. Because they came for, of course, explanation that they could squeeze in two minutes of a new product but like also for nice narrative, they came for arguments to convince skeptics, they came for positioning against competition and many other things. So I had this crash course on messaging whenever I had like hundreds, hundreds of cases from tech, finance, pharma and many others. So you know, like one day big pharma comes and they say we have this new neurodegeneration drug that we need to promote to doctors. The other day, you know, you have oh we are big cloud provider and we want to address developers with our new service. And the other day you have the guy who's head of a jet engine factory and he says oh we are doing this five-year restructuring and we want our employees to understand what's going on. So it was like all over the place, and because it was all over the place I could learn a lot like many cases. And yeah, like many of these companies were these big corporations and once we got the core message, we were like okay, we are doing videos but we started doing like presentations, you know, materials for marketing, sales, sometimes for these trade shows and so on, so it expanded a lot. So we started with videos and then we started doing all other things.

But what was also interesting was that I also had to do marketing and sales for the agency. So, you know, not only help clients but also do it for the agency. And I had some experience already with B2B marketing, but I wasn't that good at sales, and you know, selling to corporations is like very complex, it's like totally different than selling to customers. So I was lucky enough to have my friend Usama, who was another black belt B2B sales guy I met in my life. He used to sell these multimillion dollar projects, you know, for Lockheed Martin, IBM, PwC, Sybase, so he he like knew everything and I was lucky to be able to ask him questions and get some support and learn from him. Yeah, so so this is what I've been doing. And like then when I got into crypto, I was like okay, what what interesting value I can bring here. And I was okay, like what I'm good at. I'm good at, you know, messaging. I'm good at finding these channels to grow. I'm good at B2B sales, and I know a thing or two about making complex things easy to understand. So I was okay, this is what I'm going to bring. So yeah, that's the TL;DR.

Awesome. Awesome, yeah. I mean, that's that's quite a skill to have um on its own to be honest, because not because there's a lot of people um that uh find that quite challenging. So um and this is a good segue because it seems like you've dumped quite a goldmine of of knowledge in a recent um blog post that you had, I think a week or so ago. Um just curious like why um why share that um at like freely openly and not have it behind like a course or something?

Yeah, so like basically all content I've ever produced is free because my approach is that I don't know, like I got a lot from this community, I mean like Ethereum community in general, and I want to give back, and that's, you know, I'm not as good developer, like I can code but I I wouldn't call myself, you know, software engineer out of my respect for this profession. But like so so this is my way of contributing. It's it's like a parallel of like writing open source software probably. But mm here I think there were a few reasons, like you know, after I left Kiwii, I wanted to process what we did well and what we could have improved in growth. So I started writing and kind of like getting my ideas, you know, on paper to have some distance and like see, you know, what happened. And then I started doing office hours, which were these calls for where everyone could sign up, and I got like 20 minutes for them where they could ask me any questions about product growth or BD. And I learned that many founders had this very, like very narrow perspective on growth. They were like, oh you just need to get viral on Twitter, or you can only do growth through BD or KOLs, whatever. And I felt okay, maybe I will just expand this post and make it not only about Kiwii but more about like this whole like philosophy of growth. Like what how can we actually do it? And since I've been running this podcast before, I had a lot of case studies in my head already, you know, because I spoke with their founders and they told me how they how they got their first users. So yeah, so I use that and also like philosophically speaking I am sometimes annoyed where I see a bad product winning because they are very good at marketing and they are very good at promoting, and I kind of wanted to arm the rebels, like arm people who are good at building but they don't know how to promote things they built. And, you know, give him give them some knowledge how to how to do it.

Excellent, yeah. And I think that's that's a wonderful thing that you're doing because especially now in today's age, well I mean the last four weeks, we've seen a lot of people really hyped on a lot of AI tools like Claude that can take your idea to MVP within like hours in some cases. So um let I think this is a great great point to kind of get into the meat meat of your blog post here. So um a lot of people um will find or maybe they don't realize um that building a thing is actually the easy part, um the fun part, so to speak. Um but it's the actual go-to-market, the user acquisition side of things that is not so fun. And you mentioned that you've seen um a lot of a lot of success stories um from from your interviews on your podcast, but um on the flip side, like what are some common mistakes and pitfalls a lot of perhaps first-time founders fall into um with this go-to-market side?

Mm, yeah, yeah. So um hmm, I think the the most like like there's a spectrum of these mistakes you can make. So so on one side of the spectrum there's like you don't think about go-to-market at all. It's like build and pray and you think that users will just come if your product is technically superior. And the reason it most of the time doesn't work is because you know that your product is better because you build it to be better, not to be worse. But other people don't, like they don't have the same knowledge that you have in your head. So you have to find a way to educate them that your product is better. So if you don't do it, like how would they possibly get to know your product, right? So that's one thing. And the other is like some people even think about go-to-market but they think that all marketing is lying and they just don't want to do it. And, you know, I mean marketers kind of deserved it, like you know, you have companies like Theranos where people just lie about things they offer, or like FTX, right, in in our business. There are also ways to distort the truth and so on. But you don't need to do it. I mean, if you build a product and you're excited about it, what what will be enough, at least for the start, is just get get like why you are excited about your product and just put it out there and find people who might be interested about it and just let them know. It's I mean you don't need to lie. I mean like Hayden when he started Uniswap, he didn't lie about his app, he just shown what is possible with his protocol, with Uniswap app, and it was just like market education, it wasn't manipulation, right?

So so this is one type of mistake. Another one would be probably hmm doing like doing something but doing it all over the place. So let's say maybe you make two tweets, record one YouTube video, send five DMs and you say, no, our marketing doesn't work. But it's as if, you know, you wrote two lines of code here, three lines there and say like our product doesn't work. I mean like you need to have a sprint, you need to be focused on one thing and really do it well before you actually get some results. And marketing is no different. I mean, you need to spend some time and have some framework, some methodology, a way of evaluating what works, what what does not. So yeah, that that would be like another type of mistake. One one like crypto specific would be just like adding referrals, point, yield, you know, airdrop promises, and then you just lose signal and you don't know if people came for your product or they came to get a lottery ticket, basically. So it's just like yeah, there are many ways to make mistakes here and I guess we just touched tip of the iceberg here.

Oh yeah. I mean that that the last bit about airdrop farmers and points and potential airdrops, that's that's a whole podcast on its own, maybe a series to be honest. Um but uh kind of coming back to um the the blog, um so I I've read it, um it's very well written. Um so in there you have a a pretty pretty neat metaphor I liked where you said basically um a product's market is kind of like a watermelon and um slices of the watermelon are basically segments um of that market. Um could you just explain like um what a segment is for for people who might not be familiar and um what the secret sauce is behind identifying these segments, perhaps using the Uniswap example as a as a driver?

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, so there are two things. One is market, so these are like people who you are after, that's a more general term. And you know, with Uniswap, you know, if Hayden Adams did all the same things as he did but he addressed European private blockchain consultants, they wouldn't find his product interesting. And like it's a big thing. I mean, that's the same, exactly the same product. But one people care about it and one people are like yeah, whatever, you know. As the same goes, one man's trash is another man's trash, right? So I and like I can give like probably like a short story about segment. So when I was in college I I worked as math tutor. And like after a few months I learned that I can make twice as much per hour if I target rich suburban kids. So I was like okay, like if they live in the suburbs they have rich parents, they will pay me twice per hour. And the reason they could pay me twice per hour was like, first of all, they had more money, of course, disposable income as we call it. Secondly, their pain was really big, because many of these people were, you know, like executives, company owners, very successful people, and when they saw their really talented kids not doing well, they were like their soul was crushing. So they were like I will pay whatever to fix that mistake.

So so these are two, you know, things about good market, like good budget and also users that have big pain. And the third thing about good market there was because I studied psychology back then, I had this different angle because I said listen like your kid is intelligent. It's not about they are not smart enough for math, they are just not motivated enough. They don't understand why should they learn how to calculate when they have calculator in a pocket. So my selling point was this, and and like that's the other specific of great market where you have this like a your own angle, your own way of getting into that market. So speaking of so that's the market and and speaking of segments, you know, good segment is people who have the same problem in the same environment, in the same context, they hang out in one place and they also speak with each other. And with these parents like the thing was that because they spoke with each other they were like oh you know, Alice has straight A's, you know, and like the other parents were oh how how did she get straight A's? I thought she's like a B student. And he goes oh, yeah, oh you know, we have this tutor named Mac and he's very good. So like that's how I got my calendar full and I was financially independent in college because I got like this segment really, really, you know, well. And yeah, so so that's like a short story on segment. And of course, in crypto you could find a way to, you know, get some ideas from from my story. And most of the time these segments are either like geographical, like you know, crypto traders in Singapore, or it's like a vertical, so you know, all DAO asset managers with over one million assets under management, or maybe just about social clusters, so people hanging out on these like seven Discord channels. So yeah.

Yeah, well said, well said. And I guess um when people are trying to identify these segments, like um I guess there isn't, ah I don't know, maybe maybe there is, is there kind of like a one-size-fits-all and how um niche or wide these segments um can go? I mean you you kind of touched on it a little briefly about like crypto traders in Singapore versus like all DAOs targeting all DAOs treasuries. Like I guess it depends on the on the product, right?

Yeah, it depends on a product and it also depends on the mm direction you go. So generally speaking finding a good niche is very good if you can then escape this niche and get it to another niche and another and another. So if you do crypto traders in Singapore and then you can go crypto traders in Hong Kong, maybe crypto traders in Seoul, that's fine. But if you go to a niche that's too small by definition because there's maybe I know 500 people on Earth, I don't know, let's say solidity let's say your niche is like solidity compiler devs, like how many people are there, like 10 in the world, I don't know, maybe 100, ah I guess probably, right? So can you make a business by selling your product to 100 people? Maybe if they pay you a lot of money, but if they not then then like that's a too small niche to make a sustainable product. So you need to be wary of that.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, it's like um unless you charge exorbitant amount of money there I don't know how you can stay in business quite a while. Um but uh I guess um once um somebody has identified um a segment or segments that they want to kind of go after, like how how do people actually go and reach out to these users? Like um what are some strategies around that?

Yeah, so here we get to channels which are basically paths that lead users to your product. And here I recommend this book by Gabriel Weinberg called Traction because he describes 19 channels there and there's like you know, BD, billboards, ads, you know, also like PR stunts and like all like trade shows, like he describes many of these channels and he describes stories of startups that used them for growth successfully. So it can open your mind a lot. And what I would suggest is is going through this list, maybe adding a few crypto native channels to that list and just brainstorm ideas that you could use as your startup. And like start with all channels even if even if you feel they don't make sense because it opens your thinking a lot. And it's very easy to get into this hammer and nail bias where, you know, let's say in your last startup you used Google ads and it worked and now you're like yeah, we need to use Google ads for this startup. But maybe it doesn't make sense, like maybe it's better to use Twitter or Telegram or I don't know, YouTube ads, whatever. So so it's good to, you know, write down all these ideas, then just rank them using cost of acquisition of one user, ease of testing, also like time to signal and like how they fit your product. Because like, you know, if you sell for example professional software for portfolio managers then TikTok might not be the best channel. So maybe there is poor product fit. And once you do that, then pick three channels and out of these three pick one that you want to start with. And focus on the channel for like two weeks or four weeks even and just learn a lot, just focus on one thing instead of 20 things at the same time because then you can just like, you know, squeeze this learning into this one thing and you can actually get better at it because like, you know, let's say you you picked TikTok, ah like I don't even have TikTok. So let's say I picked TikTok, I install it and I'm like okay I will make TikTok videos now to promote my product. If I record them they will probably suck, I mean like because I'm not a TikToker, I don't know how to do stuff there, right? So like I could say well, you know, TikTok doesn't work. Well, it doesn't work because I'm bad at TikTok, not because TikTok doesn't work, right? So so it's very important to like get better at a channel and it's important I think to do research, whether blog posts, podcasts, or speak with people who were successful at a channel that you choose so you can learn, you know, how to actually navigate that.

Yeah, exactly. I think just starting small instead of like really big like it's very hard to to multitask um um as as as skilled as you may think you are um working on like five or different things at the same time isn't as effective as putting all your energy in kind of one thing seeing what happens and and then kind of taking that day data and then uh uh strategizing your next move. Um but I guess um after somebody um has identified the segments they want to target, the channels and which ones to prioritize, how how do people actually convince other people um that they need to use your product? I guess there's there's quite a quite a art in this um but what are some tips and tricks um from your experience?

Yeah, yeah, there is a lot to unpack here. So like I have like a separate guide about it which we might link in the description later. But you know, like like a bottom line is that when people learn about new product they silently ask themselves three questions. Question number one is does this product solve a problem I have? If it doesn't, you just scroll down. Second, does this product meet the requirements I have for this product? Third is like can I trust that it's going to work as advertised? So I will give you an example, let's say I sell air purifiers, and you live in Mordor where the air is not as good. So so you might be thinking well, maybe this air is not good for me. So you scroll down Twitter and you see my ads that says ooh hard to focus, maybe it's your air. Our air purifiers are used by software developers, scientists, and writers that need keep their mind sharp, they can cover up to 40 square meters and are as silent as your night breath. And they are used by 15,000 people worldwide. So if you read that, of course it's like a very salesy kind of ad kind of like a message, but if you read that you're like okay, like if air is your problem, it ticks all these checkboxes and you will maybe click and learn more and then maybe learn how it exactly works and so on. If you don't tick these checkboxes then it's going to be way, way harder to convince someone to try it. And yeah, like if you want to dig in just go to this guide because I think it's like 30 pages long, there's like many, many examples from real products so you can you can learn a lot even just by scrolling down just like having a look.

Yeah and we will definitely have that in the description below um and and yeah I mean this is like an age-old problem, this is like I don't think any um there's anything off the shelf that kind of makes it magic um to ah there's always an art to it and you always have to kind of work out. Yeah there is actually like hmm if you like the thing that I tested lately just get to an LLM, your favorite whatever you use, link my blog post, this guide, and send your docs, whatever docs you have about your product, and ask it to use these rules to write a description of your product. It's like not perfect but it's for many people it's like good enough and like a great start. So yeah, I I think it's it's a pretty useful hack you can use now.

Great sug- great suggestion, ah yeah why not? We got we're living in the age of AI so definitely ah yeah I know I'll I'll probably try it ah after after our session today. Um but I guess um as we're kind of closing in on time um just want to get a couple more uh pick your brain on a couple more things here. Um so people um so let's say they've identified their segments, their channels, they know how to sell their product. Um inevitably um and I know probably a lot of first-time founders kind of go through this is a lot of people will say will tell you no, you'll get ignored um and there's this real like human emotional part to to all of this as well. Like um what would you um um what advice would you give to to people are kind of going through that or will go through that um in their first round of of building a product and trying to sell it?

Yeah, mm yeah it is hard also to second time and third time, fourth time founders, it just like hard. But like the hard part is you know when you start, you have a lot of ideas, you're like oh this channel will work like it will grow like crazy, and then you do it and it doesn't work. And and and you're like oh my god like am I like stupid, like why did I even came up with this idea. So then you come up with a second idea and third and fourth and none of them work. And and like it's easy to get depressed, but I think what helped me at least were like two kind of like frameworks I have in my mind. So first is understanding the game you're playing. So figuring out growth for early-stage startup is one of the hardest things on Earth that you can do. It's literally if it was easy everyone would do it, right? Like like and only few startups per year actually succeed in in our space. So it is super hard. So you know if I was let's say I have like a we are on a basketball court and I have a ball, if I was under the basket and I ask you like what's my chance of scoring a point, that's probably maybe 90%. But if I went to half court and I asked you then it's probably like 5%, maybe 10%. If I'm, you know, Steph Curry maybe it's like 20, 30%. But like even the best NBA player on Earth in terms of long range shots don't have even 50% accuracy. And it's the same here, it's just like a very hard game and you need to understand that you shouldn't expect expect it to work at the first try. If it works, congrats, like you want a lottery and like you had or you had a great intuition, but like typically you just need to have more time. And it's kind of the same with product. Like it's not like the first idea you have for a feature is a killer feature that brings you crazy revenue, right? It just like you need to probably test a lot of things. So that's one mindset. The other mindset is thinking of yourself as this R&D scientist. So you know you make experiment and it doesn't work, and you make another it doesn't work, but then you're like okay here it didn't work at all, here it worked a little bit, here it kind of worked, so you kind so you use this information to update your mental model and then you make a better hypothesis next time and and maybe eventually you will figure out the way to change lead into gold or whatever you you are working on. So yeah that's what I would advise, and I would also advise to start working on distribution as fast as possible. Probably you are already too late. I mean like you should like the best way to do this distribution is to do it before you even build any product. Because you get like it can be very simple, you can make a group chat for people that experience the problem that you want to solve with your product and just get feedback from them, ask them, you know, what could you improve, hmm and then ask them okay do you know any other people who have the same problems and maybe you know get some word of mouth and and just even getting that, even spending like one hour per day on distribution will help you tremendously. So if it is one thing you were supposed to be left after this podcast with, just spend at least one hour per day on distribution. Really, trust me, it's going to help.

Ah there you go. There you go folks you you heard it here. Um and and it might be counterintuitive to to some of the more um um engineer focused um audience members here. But I I that like I think what you said is like um spot on because you're basically kind of sort of making a mini community when you do such things and you're getting signal of what people actually want what people's actually pain points are versus you just going with your assumptions that oh yeah like I I built this like technically superior thing um I think it's really I think it's really cool but it might not necessarily hit with um the everyone else. And I guess um on that point like um I'm at you mentioned it earlier in the podcast but um for people who do make a technically superior product um but end out losing to um somebody who may who might not have made as great a product but had better marketing like um what would your advice um be to those those types of folks?

Well you need to accept this hard truth that it's not that technically superior products win. Um products that win are products that become these defaults. So you know when if I asked you about the computer, maybe you would recommend me a MacBook, maybe you would recommend me some gaming PC, whatever, but like it's not that you made a spreadsheet of all computers on Earth ever created unless you're like a huge you know computer geek. So we always have these mental shortcuts. And the goal of a product is to become this mental shortcut because once you something is a mental shortcut and people are like what phone will I buy well iPhone whatever right or like or like MacBook then it's to overcome that you need to have a way way way better product because you need to overcome all the social proof, habits, you know easy of use, all like all that. So if your product is better and you think it's objectively better, it's actually morally very positive to promote it because you want to help these people, you want them to be more happy, they are at this point not not knowledgeable enough to understand why your product is better, but like by spreading the news about your product you are actually helping them. If your product of course is actually better, if it's not then then like no. But yeah.

Awesome and yeah well said man. Um and unfortunately that kind of brings us to time. Um thank you so much Mac for taking the time out of your day to to come talk um on the podcast here. I know I learned a lot. I I'm hopeful our audience also learned a lot. Um for people who want to uh follow along with all the great work that you're doing, what's the best way for them to uh follow along? Oh I think going to my website it's macbudkowski.com, just my name .com, and there are links to you know my blog, Twitter, like everything that you might be interested in. And uh that will all be linked in the description below so definitely give Mac a follow. Um I mean uh from what you heard and and saw today, um I don't know why you wouldn't. So um definitely um get on that. And uh with that I just want to wish everybody a happy Wednesday, happy rest of the week um and we'll catch you back here next week for another great episode of DevNTell. Till then, have a good one folks. Cheers. Yeah, thanks a lot. Goodbye. See ya.