Fighting Rare Disease on Undiagnosed Day | Stanley Bishop & Mikk Cederroth

GM, GM. Welcome to what's going to be another fantastic episode of DevNTell. So if you didn't know, DevNTell is a 30-minute podcast allowing founders, hackers, and anyone in between the opportunity to come on the show and showcase what they've built. And today, I'm really ecstatic to welcome back AI scientist Stanley Bishop and, for the first time, Mikk Cederroth, who is the co-founder of the Wilhelm Foundation. So if you didn't know, today is actually Undiagnosed Day. So it's a very special day in recognition of all the millions of people who go undiagnosed with rare diseases. So today's conversation is going to be very special in the sense that we'll get to learn more about Undiagnosed Day, all the work Stanley and Mikk are doing to help combat rare disease, and a little bit more around some of the things both are doing here today. And yeah, without that, let's get into it.

GM, GM. Welcome to the show, Mikk, and welcome back, Stanley. Ecstatic to have you both on today. And yeah, I guess before we get into all the details around Undiagnosed Day and the great work both of you are doing around it, I guess would you just like to give a brief introduction about both yourselves? I don't know who wants to go first.

Heck yeah, I will certainly go first. And I am Stanley Bishop, aka Science Stanley, the DeSci guy. And I'm obviously very passionate about science, decentralized collaboration in science. Many of y'all have, you know, kind of seen me or heard of my work on various projects, but I'm really here today to talk about the area that I'm most passionate about and an area that, as an undiagnosed patient, affects me personally. And yeah, also to introduce one of my favorite people on the whole planet, Mikk, and you know, he's the leader of, I think, a group I'm so excited for everyone in the Web3 community to learn about, the Wilhelm Foundation. I really think they're doing some of the most important work on the planet right now.

Yeah, so I'm Mikk Cederroth. I'm from Sweden. I'm professionally actually a CTO with my own company. But all the time that I have outside my work goes to the Wilhelm Foundation. And the reason for that is that me and my wife lost our three youngest kids to an undiagnosed disease. So Wilhelm was 16 years old when he passed, and then just one year after, Emma, six years old, died, and then we had two years left with Hugo. So in three years, we lost three children. And we wanted to make sure as much as we can that other families and other kids don't end up in the same situation. And actually, the goal is to help people. And we started out with kids, but we're now calling it people because we want to help adults. Everybody who's undiagnosed needs a diagnosis, and it's the only way you will know what you're suffering from, what you can do and what you cannot do, and you know, see a path forward. Even though doctors tell a lot of these parents to, you know, accept the disease, there's nothing you're going to do. I mean, only 5% of rare diseases does have a treatment. But just knowing, and for many parents, just knowing it wasn't their fault doing something, you know, painting during pregnancy or whatever, because you could find a genetic cause or another cause. So that's we devoted the last 25 years to the Wilhelm Foundation, actually, and I think the, yeah, that's pretty much it.

Wow. First, so sorry that you and your family had to go through that. I can't imagine what that must have felt like. But putting you guys' heart and soul the last 25 years to make sure nobody else goes through what you guys went through, I think that's wonderful to hear. And I'm so excited for our audience to learn more about Undiagnosed Day in general and how they can help, and the Wilhelm Foundation in itself. I guess before we kind of dive into that, just to set the scene for everybody, as we mentioned, today is Undiagnosed Day. I'd love for both to get both your perspectives and input here in just telling our audience exactly what Undiagnosed Day is and what its purpose is.

Oh my gosh. And I'd love to say just a small thing before turning it over to Mikk because, you know, his and the rest of the leadership at the Wilhelm Foundation and all of their foundation partners are a big part of Undiagnosed Day existing and all of the activities going on globally to kind of push this cause forward. But in a very like personal way, I've been an undiagnosed patient for about 21 years was when I started to have some symptoms that I couldn't get answers for. And so in a certain way, like I've been this very courtside spectator to the work of the Wilhelm Foundation and everyone else in the international undiagnosed disease and patient movement. And man, things have changed in those 20 years. And they have so much more changing to do. But 20 years ago, you didn't really hear people talking about the experience of undiagnosed folks out there. When you were an undiagnosed patient, you felt so much more uncomfortable talking to your doctors. And I believe that doctors felt much less comfortable having an undiagnosed patient. And so really we're at a moment of, I think, takeoff where like there's now this consciousness of there being a problem we're all a part of and we can all help with. And so I think that's kind of a big part of this, right Mikk, is like this is now a day where we're really wanting to shine a spotlight on how everyone can get involved in this mission, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, we've been so many years talking about rare diseases and actually very rarely does a doctor mention undiagnosed, because that's a in their book a failure. And they also very often don't refer you to another doctor because they don't want to admit that they don't know what it is and they won't admit it to you. So all those parts has been very much struggle to get into the room. And then rare diseases, as you know, has gotten more attention and more attention and some money and funding. And but still, at every conference we go to, scientific, they say, you know, the diagnostic odyssey is between five and seven years and then you get your diagnosis. This is only true for 40%, and it's only true for the 40% that actually gets the correct investigations, meaning living in a high-resource country where, well, this is available. And then you have very big parts of the world who doesn't even come close. So it's actually just to put it in a little context about the little start it had, it was a mother actually started something that called Undiagnosed Children's Day. And we picked up on that and did that for a couple of years. But then we realized we cannot exclude adults who doesn't have a diagnosis because that's also a huge problem. And I mean, not every disease manifests when you're young; it could have a very late onset or a long diagnostic journey that for many doesn't even end. So that's the whole thing. And I think the big thing to this year is that we're actually collaborating with the biggest EU project, ERDERA, and we are having Undiagnosed Day here in Gdansk in Poland. And we also had today, it was like a roundtable with 10 cases from Poland which were not solved, and actually one from Ukraine, and they we had a lot of specialists sitting around the table trying to take a crack at this today just to see what we could do.

Ugh, I'm so jealous I'm not over there, Narb. I gotta say, man, we'd have to get you out for some of the kind of cool work and the collaboration that goes on. And I'm so sorry to jump in, Mikk, but there was, I think, especially for this audience, something I wanted to underline and something where I really see the Wilhelm Foundation as like a leading group. There's something about undiagnosed advocacy that is kind of inherently decentralized. You know, like these are kind of patients that don't fit into any of the cookie-cutter systems. And so, you know, often their data, the expertise, it's kind of all over the place. And so in a bunch of different ways, like the Wilhelm Foundation has, you know, kind of like Mikk's saying, been literally bringing the right people to the table, you know?

Yeah, and that's how we started actually. I mean, our big dream as parents was to gather experts to one conference and try to solve the kids' diseases, including ours then from the beginning. But then when it turned out that they weren't around long enough to be part of the first one, we did have our first one after a couple of years. And we actually started a network called Undiagnosed Diseases Network International, which is a copy of the UDN that you have in the US, which is still running and from what I heard I think it's getting more funding actually to keep it going and they've been doing that for more than 10 years. So the UDNI is actually from having one conference as a goal, we had 14 now and we're having our next one in October in Italy. And but the thing is, we didn't bring all the kids and the families and the affected people to the conferences because it wasn't really possible in the beginning and all the experts. But we gathered a really good community working together. But then we realized we wanted to do something more and then that's that's where the hackathon and that part comes in. But to Stanley's point, I think one very important part of this is the sharing of data because you have all these privacy laws and you have all these even just in Sweden we have 21 regions for our hospital system, they can't even share medical records with each other. So if you're working with something that's ultra-rare or very rare, it's you're going to need all the people in the world with that disease to learn more and be able to diagnose it and potentially treat it. So.

One of our partners right now, Narb, has sort of a colleague clinic in China and they have all of the data that would be needed to work on a certain rare disease and then there's a lab, our friend over at Dell Medical School here in the United States, they have all the kind of wet lab capacity and then we have some partners in the EU with the other piece of the puzzle and so, you know, it's like not every roll of the dice like looking for a medicine for a patient is like going to be a win but it is still important we take as many of those rolls of the dice as possible and so just that one example of those three pieces that are kind of in different compliance zones and, you know, kind of saying this for all the engineers and the developers out there who are passionate about decentralized solutions, the hard part of that problem is just the compliance engineering. Like how do you engineer something that satisfies HIPAA, GDPR, SOC 2, sort of China's equivalent compliance regimes. And um, yeah, unfortunately like there's all of these really important pieces of medical research where that kind of compliance engineering or that decentralized coordination and validation is 80% of the work. You know? So anyway, just big shout out to the community like there's patients who could really use your support.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, I'm glad you guys touched on this point because I was going to go here anyways, just to kind of figure out exactly what the hurdles are, what the problems are of having some of these rare diseases be solved. So it sounds like there's a data problem in that data is fragmented and sometimes access to that data is not easy. It sounds like there's also issues of just being able to get some of these patients in a common place where all these resources can be accessed, they have access to these doctors, and it sounds like even probably some resources around sequencing some of their genetics, the DNA, and like figuring out exactly what the disease is, what the atoms are that kind of make up the disease. I have no expertise in this area so.

No, no, Narb, you're going right into the problems and you know I have to say man, if there was any chance like maybe you could put up just the hackathon video real quick and then maybe because I think that's a really good way to frame what this process looks like. Because as fun as Dr. House is on TV, it's a little bit less dramatic or at least a little bit less narrative than that but it it does actually require like teams of people working together and kind of hard work just like anything else. So take your time getting it framed up too. I never know how to do this. Like can you make it like isn't there a theater mode button? Oh yeah, there we go. But yeah, maybe pause it before we play it real quick. Let me just say a quick thing. Like let's maybe we can stop it at oo, look at the good Wilhelm Foundation logo there. Love the logo, by the way. So good.

But Narb, I think you know me like I've been very active in decentralized science. A big part of that comes from having built HPC or high-performance computing systems for pharma companies and having particularly helped a lot of pharma companies and labs like go from running computers on-prem, like on their actual like in their basement somewhere, to the cloud. And yeah, man, I just really noticed this pattern of when me and the other engineers were building these systems we would get all hyped up by management that like oh, we're going to use this for rare disease and we're going to be working on ALS and then, you know, the things that the systems were often used for was like very night and day what we were sold on, what we were helping build. And so that was actually like Narb what made me get into DeSci and, you know, I was part of, Mikk, some of the early kind of projects in DeSci that were kind of looking at like oh, what if we create systems where doctors and scientists can self-govern and they're not kind of beholden to these like centralized systems of control. And that led to, you know, Mikk, something you know about many years ago, when I was at LabDAO, we ran something called the Stanford Rare AI Hackathon. And this was a kind of small project built around the idea of pulling together concentrated expertise to solve different specific problems. And yeah, I think that at least in small part like that work and the work of others doing similar kind of hackathons led to some of what you'll see in this incredibly cool video. And yeah, Narb, hit it. Let's watch this incredibly cool video with the audience real quick. And then Mikk, this was at Mayo.

Yeah, which you were at, thankfully.

Yeah! Narb, I always joke this is like my Coachella. But it actually kind of is like that, though, except not for music culture but for biomedical culture. Because, you know, Mayo Clinic kind of regarded as the world's finest hospital. I mean, I don't think it's a race, but I think a lot of people would give them that. And yeah, Mikk, what is it, like physicians from over 30 countries come, right?

Exactly. And I mean, the thing that makes this hackathon a little more special than being more about, you know, the data and analyzing is that we actually bring the families and the kids and the affected into the room to show all these bioinformaticians and clinicians and scientists that this is actually, you know, real people with real hopes and dreams. And you can see, I mean, they stand in front of 150 experts and they know now some of them are going to just try to figure out what my son or daughter or myself is suffering from. Maybe Stanley?

I gotta say, it is incredibly brave of the patients to go there and be part of this. And I have to say I'm like inspired by that, and it's inspired me to speak up as a patient myself. And at the same time, it almost feels like you're at a family reunion. They create this energy that's just so beautiful. And quite frankly, Narb, it's kind of a special thing for me because I'm usually a few servers away from the patients who I support. And so it does feel really special to, you know, be there with the clinicians and interacting with the families and seeing the impact. And then I gotta tell you too, not to distract from the emotional message, but the technical puzzle of these hackathons is also so fascinating because we don't just have some of the most inspiring and compelling patient cases in the world coming from all over to be part of this. We don't have just, you know, many of the world's best physicians joining. We have data-generated and technology systems coming from the world's very best companies: Oxford Nanopore Technologies, PacBio, Illumina, literally a list of every single big company that's making impact in bio like sees this as a chance to show off their latest tech, to have authentic impact on patients. And so really like has kind of a little bit of a all the king's horses, all the king's men vibe. Like we even, Narb, it was so cool, got to do some pilot and alpha usage of AlphaGenome from DeepMind. Some of the team at DeepMind are like just incredibly passionate supporters of the undiagnosed and rare disease movement and so, you know, get to work with them, get to learn from them. And at the same time, though, there is almost this like thing, there's that phrase, what is it, water, water everywhere but not a drop to drink. And another one is like the sort of drowning in data, thirsty for insights, right? Because unfortunately, just like we were saying with some of these like compliance issues, this is a pretty standard problem in undiagnosed medicine and, you know, data science for rare and undiagnosed disease. You you do have, like you were kind of getting into Narb doing your little like architecture thinking, a lot of different data. The data is of different types, it has different formats, there's different models, there's different cloud providers, there's different compliance regimes. And so there's this very complicated like Rubik's Cube that has to be, you know, set just the right way for these things to happen. And you know, that's just to kind of underline this idea that like outside of actually, you know, having huge impact for these patients, and I think in general like not that it's sort of a thing to look at as a numbers game because also as we, you know, diagnose more of the harder patients, like the remaining patients will probably get harder, but you know usually I think there's something like a 50% plus diagnostic rate at these hackathons. And also, we're kind of exploring this pattern, right? Because you might think of it, Narb, that like these patients for the year after the hackathon are maybe like the most observed patients in human history. And, you know, in that sense like we're not just helping these patients, we're kind of trailblazing, right? Like we're pushing forward the frontier of what is possible.

Which which is the goal of the Undiagnosed Hackathon, really. It's not the actual diagnosis at the event; it's to try to push boundaries and push the science forward and put, you know, find new ways, as we say. And with brilliant minds and big hearts, that's what can be possible.

I love that. And I guess like what's the schedule like for the hackathon? Are there any more lined up for this year? How are people able to get involved?

Yeah, so we have the what we call our flagship hackathon because now we have more than one a year, which is excellent. We had one in Hyderabad in India. And now the next one is going to be in Singapore and it's going to be in September. And actually we're going to open up so we don't we have a limited number of places so we open up an application for people and it's actually everybody's welcome to apply and then we try to mix these applications into the best possible group that we can make and make a hackathon out of it. And then we're actually having, for the people in the US, it's the American Society of Human Genetics, but it's actually not held in the US; it's going to be in Montreal in Canada because they do that every every five years something like that. But there's going to be a pre-workshop at that genetic meeting of about five hours or so, which is going to be a mini hackathon where we're going to bring some of the ones that weren't solved at hackathons and we're going to take, like Stanley said, the hardest ones to maybe the best geneticist and bioinformaticians in the world in the US. So.

And I think that hackathon's on my birthday!

Oh wow, is it? So he gets he gets a free ticket in! He's already selected.

Excellent, excellent. Hey listen, man, whatever it takes to get there, it's so much fun. And man, I gotta say, like I'm sure there's a lot of folks in the audience who love to hack and man, is it especially at like this kind of a crazy moment where, you know, tech is having a lot of impact and not all of it is good. It's pretty special to like really be there collaborating with a group of folks doing good work, you know, putting technology to good use. And you know, I think too like not just in a way that like can make us feel better but I think sometimes like we're such a monkey see, monkey do kind of creature, right? So when when you're seeing other people doing stuff, it can be real inspiring. And then Narb, I think we are also like looking to start some more decentralized and open-source developer work. Like we may have a project we'll be announcing this week and if we could get that out to your audience in the Developer DAO community, it would be so exciting because, you know, as everyone in the audience, because I know we're talking to a bunch of nerds, is probably seeing, we're in a little bit of a takeoff moment, you know? Like I wonder how many of your audience members have gone from writing code every day to watching AI write code every day.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, I'm glad you you guys touched on this point because I was going to go here anyways. Just to kind of figure out exactly what the hurdles are, what the problems are of having some of these rare diseases be be solved. So it sounds like there's a data problem in that data is fragmented and sometimes access to that data is not easy. It sounds like there's also issues of just being able to get some of these patients in a common place where all these resources can be accessed, they have access to these doctors, and it sounds like even probably some resources around sequencing some of their genetics, the DNA, like figuring out exactly what the disease is, what the atoms are that kind of make up the disease. I I have no expertise in this area so.

And, you know, just like all of a sudden every developer has something like a little software engineering team in their laptop working for them, we want to help put that same level of diagnostic force that gets concentrated at these hackathons in everybody's little agentic context who is trying to help a patient. And so I think we're going to have a lot of opportunities for developers to get involved and to contribute. And, you know, we'll be sharing more of those. And my ambition too, Mikk, is that, you know, we have like, you know, here in LA, a really healthy developer community, you know, San Francisco, Austin, you know, where our bro Dr. Ecker lives. There's so many, I think, communities out there just like looking for a mission like this. And you know, Narb, I gotta say like, you know, the Web3 community is a diverse community that can often be moving in lots of directions at once. But when I've seen the community really get organized and inspired to pull in one direction, like I've never been as impressed with a community of engineers in my life, you know?

100%. Yeah, it's it's really special when you get that coordination going. And I'm sure people in our audience are chomping at the bit to work on basically this this is like bleeding-edge research and development, at least in my eyes. And I just want to touch on the the AI bit because I I'm one of those I'm one of those people who went from writing code every day to getting my little assistant in my laptop to help me or in the cloud. I guess from this perspective of AI is doing mostly all the things now, there's always been this constraint on compute power and who has access to it and who doesn't and I don't know if you guys have seen, but Elon wants to put some satellites on the moon or around the moon to basically generate enough power to power the world's compute. Whether he does that or not, I don't know. But from your guys' perspective, is compute power and access to compute power something that you think today might be limiting some of this rare disease research and some of the stuff people can can do to combat it?

Hey, man, I sorry to just jump up and Mikk, want to hear your perspective too. But like, oh my god, yes! It's terrible. It's really a moment where 80% of the work of many of our top researchers is going into things like negotiating AWS contracts and like getting co-tenancy with with admin and IT. Mikk, do you see that as a big problem from your perspective? Though I don't mean to jump in; this is just my big soapbox that I love to occupy.

I was going to say this is your subject. No, so the only thing I would want to add is that for undiagnosed diseases and disease discovery, this technology coming is going to be crucial. And of course we're going to need, I mean, it's not going to be handed over to the undiagnosed community and the doctors. So it's going to be in competition with everything else. So of course we need to scale that. If it's orbiting around the moon, I don't know, but it sounds cool.

Well listen, and the I gotta say that one is a whole can of worms because I still haven't had anyone explain to me how the thermodynamics of that is going to work. You know, really excited to hear, though, but that's a whole lot of heat to transfer into essentially nothing. But then also I think what Mikk kind of says is really accurate: like we do need to think a little bit more globally about what our compute ecosystem is going to look like. I think we're still in this period of frontier lab capture, where the ability to orchestrate distributed frontier lab quality MLOps systems is very scarce. These technologies that we're talking about, agents, and also just the general diffusion of these techniques will make them more and more accessible. And so, for example, right now I can think of like three to five hospitals that have what I would describe as hyperscale capable IT teams. And a couple years ago it was zero. And you know, I think we will start to see democratization just in terms of how our current system works.

I also think that the engineering becomes less of a moat with AI agents, with the diffusion of these techniques. And so the value to me starts to come from the depth and the uniqueness of the context, and then the uniqueness of the combination in context. And so I feel that just like we have a system where when I type in a URL, I'm not paying somebody to deliver my request for a website to the right website, we have a system called DNS. I think that we together, and I look at this as a place where the Web3 community really needs to lead, we need to come up with a standard of some kind so that any job that needs data and compute and expertise from multiple stakeholders can be memorialized in a standard way and understood, you know, put on the ledger. I think we do need to move towards a system that does that. And then one thing that gets really exciting once you have a system that does that, you know, everybody's excited about these big data centers running these big Nvidia chips. We have a dear colleague at Dell Medical School who has a bunch of Mac Studios in his garage running open-source models that are fine-tuned on science. And those are outperforming a lot of the frontier lab models because they have better context. And so soon enough, it's not just going to be Anthropic and OpenAI; it's going to be model running on your laptop, model running on your friend's laptop.

So yeah, like what we could start to imagine like once we move from this very centralized model of frontier AI to a decentralized and collaborative model, which, you know, I really think will power itself through the value created, right? Like there's a lot of systems where you really can't do it unless you do have that good substrate for mixing together the pieces of the puzzle. And here's just kind of like my goofy ambition: if we had a system like that, you know, there will be a lot of excess compute that it administers, there'll be a lot of value that it helps create, and what if some of that value went to some of these under-supported populations, you know? Like what if we had a system where every time a, you know, an AI job is coordinated for an AI girlfriend company or something like that, like some portion of that value or that compute can, you know, go to groups like the Wilhelm Foundation or the rare care center and, you know, actually have that value allocated by the doctors and the scientists who like know where it should go. Anyway, this is just some goofy thinking, but to me this is like, you know, again like a flag I'm hoping to wave because, you know, imagine a world where um it's unusual to hear about an undiagnosed patient. Or imagine a world where, you know, you know that if a family member of yours gets a disease that they don't have a diagnosis for, like they're going to find a group like the Wilhelm Foundation that is going to put this kind of effort into helping them find a solution. And I'm so sorry we lost Mikk, because I was going to toss it back to him for like a little crescendo. But Narb, man, thank you so much for having us. And I I literally can't think of a better way to start Undiagnosed Day because we kind of have a whole day of festivities and kind of interaction with different folks. And yeah, man, just to kind of tell the story really crisp like this to the my really like my favorite developer community that I'm a part of, it just really is a a treat, man. So thanks so much for having us.

My pleasure. And yeah, and thank you so much to both of you. Like you said, we lost Mikk, but I'm sure he's listening somewhere or he's trying to join back. But just the fact that you can shed some light on on this, maybe some people in the audience didn't have any idea this type of thing was going on or there are foundations like the Wilhelm Foundation fighting the good fight. I was going to ask Mikk, but I'll ask you: for people in the audience who want to learn more, what's the best way to read more on the Wilhelm Foundation and learn about rare disease research a bit more?

Heck yeah, man! Well I would say, you know, the Undiagnosed Hackathon website is a great place to go. And I'll just put some things in our chat and then maybe if you want to share them with the, you know, the stream chat or the community. So there's the Undiagnosed Hackathon website. Here's a really great article on the Wilhelm Foundation and the Cederroths that was written by Katie Couric; really like touching article, really kind of centers you on the human part of the story. And quite frankly, it's worth reading just if you're having a tough day because it kind of does remind you that, you know, as bad as we can get as humans, like there really is this part of our spirit that's capable of taking the hardest moments and the toughest chapters and like weaving them into a book that you can be proud to be a character in, you know what I mean? And so I'd say those are two really good things. We do have this GitHub, and this is like for the open-source project we'll be announcing this week. There may be some adjustment in the branding, but if anyone wants to kind of go help out by starring a repo, taking a look at some work. What we're basically doing, Narb, is we're looking to build open-source context to drive agentic harness systems. So, you know, things like Open Code, running things like Gwen models, you know, like things that you could run on your MacBook, things that would be focused on not like diagnosing patients but helping doctors diagnose patients. Um, so things like running tools, like coming up with lists of tests to run on data, like doing the tests, compiling the reports, the boring stuff that like we don't want our physicians wasting time on. That's what we're looking to, you know, provide support for. And so like man, like we're going to be fine-tuning lots of models, we're going to be doing a lot of validation testing, we could, you know, totally use some good developers.

And then last thing I will say is we do have a nice developer community and that's a community that's focused on building an open standard for collaborative computing. And actually, let me just make sure I have the right link for it, but I'll send you a link. And that's kind of like a little bit of a smaller community because we're still in kind of stealth mode for that protocol. But anyone who wanted to get involved, I think that second link is good, would be really happy to have you come join, like bunch of cool nerds building stuff. And anyway, Narb, just really like so fun to catch you, man, and I would love to just also separately let's let's catch up soon. It's been too long.

Of course, of course, man. Yeah, it's it's always a pleasure catching up and talking. I always love our conversations. But for this one, again Stanley and Mikk, if I know you're watching, thank you so much again for taking the time out of your busy day to come chat with us today. And all the resources that Stanley did mention are going to be in the description of this podcast. So definitely poke around, get involved. There's no better time than now with the technology available to you. And with that, just want to wish everybody a happy midweek and that we'll catch you back here on Friday for another episode of DevNTell. Until then, have a good one, folks. Cheers.