Explore Web3 Cloud Gaming with Shaga

GM, GM. Welcome to what's going to be another great episode of DevNTell. So, if you didn't know, DevNTell is a 30-minute podcast held every Friday, allowing founders, hackers, and anyone in between to come on the show and showcase their product. And today, I am ecstatic to welcome Daeshawn Ballard, who's the co-founder of Shaga, as well as a hardcore DDOG. Uh, so if you didn't know, Shaga is unlocking new ways to earn and create viral content for streamers through their global peer-to-peer DePIN supercomputer, powered by gamers. Uh, so if you stick around for today's episode, you'll see Daeshawn uh give us an overview of the platform, tell us a little bit about uh his story and how he started in DD, how he got into tech, and also tell us how Shaga is rethinking cloud gaming from the ground up. All right, let's get into it.

GM, GM. Welcome to the show, Daeshawn.

Narb, I'm so, so excited to be here, man. It's so good to see you and so good to speak with you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, likewise. It's been, it's been far too long. Uh, I mean, uh, you've been busy founding a company, going raising uh a boatload of money. So, I mean, understandable, understandable, but uh uh yeah, it's wonderful to have you on the show uh after all this time.

Yeah, 100%. You know, it's been one of those things where uh you never know where life takes you, but you know, where the uh the thing that you can know is that the friends that you've made along the way, you'll be able to like reconnect with them uh at some point along that journey. So I'm glad that we're here uh reconnecting uh on this journey. So yeah.

Yeah, 100% and there's actually been a lot of um original Developer DAO members who've gone on to found their own companies or find their own success. Um so um it's it's really really nice to have these like mini reunions on the podcast or in real life um. But I guess for folks who aren't uh familiar with yourself, um would you like to give a brief intro?

Yeah, uh so my name is Daeshawn Ballard and I am man, there's so many things I could say about myself, but you know, first and foremost, I'm a son, I'm a brother, oldest of five, and I am from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So a lot of people uh always catch me saying 'yinz' uh because that's some Pittsburgh-ese, right? So I am just super passionate about technology, family, you know, God, and uh just really about progress. Um so it's one of those things where I think a lot of different uh elements have kind of converged in my life and somehow some way I was able to put those pieces together to you know, do product uh for over you know, almost like 10 years, you know, product management, and I really started from having zero tech experience at all. I have no formal really like degree in technology or computer engineering, um but I've felt like I've immersed myself in a lot of the cutting-edge technologies over the years just from you know, leveraging my superpower which is like being curious and and really wanting to understand things. So that's me. Uh we we we're not like really one of those families that come from much. My my dad's a barber, my mom's a nurse, and uh you know, it's just one of those things where you just making a way and and trying to trying to do something with this life that we have, right? So that's that's me.

I love that. I love that. That's a wonderful answer. And yeah, indeed, like we only have so much time here, so might as well make uh impact anyway we can. So um and uh on on that point of um your your background in tech, so would you say Web3 is your first foray or first like real foray into tech, or or did you um have any prior experience from like Web2?

Yeah, uh so it Web3 isn't my first kind of you know foray into into tech. So you know, I'll take you back and then I'll kind of take you through the the story. So for me, um it really started in actually you know, what I what I typically say is, you know, I was in high school and I I'm just a curious person. So I was a football player, right? And with that, we have to go to libraries and things like that to uh before games and so we were on our way there, but I walked past this room that I never saw before and it was open, right? And on my way to the library, I just walked in. Uh it was all these people on computers and like in this dark room, just not talking. And to set the stage, this was like '07, uh '08. And I'm like, what the heck is this? Like what are y'all doing? And they're like, 'Oh, we're programming, you know, CSS, HTML'. I was like, what is that? It was like a foreign language to me. Um and I ended up just like talking to the teacher, talking to the to those guys for a few minutes and I ended up joining that class the kind of like the next quarter. And so from there, you know, I made my own um I I'm a huge anime fan and the first first thing that I ever made was this uh Bleach like fan site and it was so great. I wish I wish I was able to find the flash drive that I had that that website on but it had music and all this stuff. It was crazy. Anyway, so I was just like captivated that I was able to build this thing, right? Um and I think the thing that really kick-started this journey though was I did music um and it was something my dad and I were like super passionate about and we did together. So even prior to that, like all those years of of doing music, you know, I started when I was 12, there were always these like moments in time where something had to be figured out like, how do we get this tool or how do we fix this error, things like that? So a lot of Googling, a lot of like reading forums and just all this crazy stuff of being like the the IT point person at home led to that curiosity um and me signing up for that class. So I really had to credit it to like my dad and music and things like that. But uh kind of fast forward, I started building my own video games and like BASIC and Visual Basic, made my own version of Contra, Pac-Man, etc. And I just fell in love with technology. But you know, with that, I never really thought that it was going to take me anywhere, I was going to do anything with it. Uh but I ended up getting this full-ride to college um based on academics and and with that, I was like, 'Oh, okay, well you know I have an an opportunity to like not be a barber like my dad'. Um so let me see what I can do here. And I tried to like do computer engineering and stuff, but it was too hard, man. It was too hard for me um at the time and so I didn't really like go down this traditional path of tech. But what I did do was I sought out opportunities to have tech uh still in my life. So I actually got an externship with Microsoft. Um and with that, I was able to help work on the Surface Pro when they first came out, uh Windows 7 when it first came out, um and then all this other stuff like OneDrive and blah blah blah. Or was it Windows 10? I can't remember exactly, but whenever OneDrive came out or SkyDrive at the time. Um and so the Windows Phone, like I had all this stuff that I was like able to kind of like pitch to the people, sell, and um get feedback on to bring back to the team over in uh was it Redmond? And it was super cool this experience. So that part of my life really set the foundation uh as a platform for what was to come. And I and I always tried to like pull this thread and figure out what ways that I could be intertwined in technology. Um and you know, one of the interesting things in in college was like 2011, right? Cuz I started in 2010. I saw Bitcoin on the news and like that that was like this moment of like, wow, like what is this? You know? And so I've just been like having this in the back of my head this kind of Web3 frontier uh or the blockchain technology and crypto. But you know, I was still pursuing this Web2 path. And it took me it took me really far, right? Until I ended up you know, at the at the doors of uh Developer DAO. But you know, that's a bigger story. So yeah, that's that's kind of how I got into it and where the journey started.

Yeah, that's that's very inspirational and um yeah, I I mean, but it takes determination and hustle um and wanting to really do something to like make it this far. So uh kudos to you. And uh I mean, uh you're still young, still getting started, so I'm sure there's much much more uh yet to come. Um and yeah, you mentioned it, um so your curiosity really um um propelled your venture into into tech and and eventually you mentioned uh learning about Bitcoin and then um all these years pass along and then NFTs come along. Um is that is that when you kind of like hopped in the DD train or like I guess how how did your curiosity lead you to DD?

Yeah, yeah. So funny story, right? Um this was this was what, 20 so so about 2016-2017, right? It was the whole uh I guess DeFi trading, whatever, like I I got I was back into the stuff at that point, but I really wanted to get into the side of like building and formalizing connections, you know? Uh I think another kind of superpower of mine is being able to network and and kind of reach across the aisle and connect with people. Um but with that, um I was very I was very curious about what was going on behind the scenes of all this stuff. I saw somebody like selling a house for Bitcoin on this uh this like shady website. Uh I can't remember what it was called. Uh not EtherDelta, maybe EtherDelta or something crazy like that. It was old school. But um with that, I was like, 'All right, man. I got to get in'. So I was just looking, studying, doing things and then like 2018 comes around. Uh I've I've now like moved into the city. Uh before that, I was in the middle of like nowhere. Times are hard. Um and then I moved back into the city and what happened from there was, you know, I started to my dad brought up like, 'You know, you should like look into this like NFT thing', right? And I'm like, 'What is that?', you know? And I was like, 'Okay, cool'. So I started researching and doing all this stuff and I think one of, if not the first, no it was like it was like one of the first NFTs that I came across was actually uh Developer DAO and I was I was like so intrigued by it because I had saw like other people kind of formulating around this community. And that was exactly what I was looking for, like a home base, like-minded people, you know, other folks who are just from all over the world, different backgrounds trying to figure this stuff out. And I think with that, I saw a really good opportunity to not only you know learn but also to just try to be of help and and try to give back for all the hours that I put in um and trying to like help people along the way uh who were just like either joining that community and I'm trying to remember exactly how I first came across it but you know what it was? You know exactly I know exactly what it was. I was looking at I was looking at getting my uh AWS certification. And I was trying to like do something in tech or um expand my Oh, I know exactly what it was. So when I when I move when I moved into the city, I was uh doing this like work with this nonprofit. It was like on a contract basis, right? And I was like, 'You know, I need to upskill myself. I'm always like about progress and whatnot'. So I was like trying to upskill myself and I'm like, 'Okay, this like uh certification stuff, this looks cool. So let me look into this. Like how do I get involved in this and whatnot?'. Um and ended up coming across this guy uh Nader Dabit, right? Like cuz he was at he was at AWS at the time. And I was following him, I'm like, 'Oh', like and I'm like trying to build like this application too at the same time to try to like practice and whatnot. Uh so he had some really cool insights on like how to build things and so I was just trying to like practice and make some projects on the side to further myself. And so with that, I saw that he had made this transition and he had talked about this community Developer DAO, right, that he had started and I'm like, 'Oh, this is perfect', right? And so that had set me up to move over into this uh like the Web2 to Web3 and it was just like this perfect thing. So back to back to uh you know, I minted the NFT, I was super excited about it, I'm involved, I'm like looking at this this Discord chat every day after after work. Um because at that point, it went from you know me being a contractor to them offering me this full-time job because I just did such a great job on this like small project that they that they offered me this full-time role, which was crazy.

Pause. Just just one second. I just want to say like, you can do whatever you want in life because I did not know what I was going to be doing after that contract ended cuz it was only a month. But I just went so hard, you know, and I wanted to do so much um to impress these folks and further myself too, I wanted to learn stuff to you know prepare myself for whatever was coming next that they were paying attention and they offered me they created a job for me uh because of that and it was it was such a blessing. But anyway, so I get back into DD, I'm helping, I'm pouring time in after work and I'm just trying to be involved. And next thing you know, I am connecting with the with the then like head of uh the MBD guild, right? Um is it what was it, Nash? Uh I don't I don't recall uh but yeah I I remember you like really getting in getting in there uh in that guild, yeah. Yeah, so I whoever was the head of MBD at the time, um you know I just started like trying to help him out as much as I could and be a resource and then eventually you know he got busy with his own stuff and he was like, 'Hey, like do you want to take this stuff over?'. And I'm like, 'Sure'. Next thing you know, I'm like I'm running this guild and I'm like this leader and core contributor in a DAO and you know it was such an amazing position to be in because I truly wanted to see everybody succeed and be helpful and you know make this place make this DAO like just better because it did so much for me. Um and eventually like with that experience, I was able to get a full-time job at Metaplex, you know the creators of the NFT standard uh on Solana, and that was just a blessing, right? So being curious and like showing up and just like being there um it helped me in a lot of ways and that paved the path for me ultimately to like become a co-founder of of Shaga, you know, and I would not be anywhere close to where I am if it wasn't for Developer DAO and all of you who like made up that amazing community.

Oh, that's that's so inspirational, man. Like like honestly, um it it takes like I guy said, it takes hustle and determination to to do what you did. Um and to your earlier point, um you can basically you can just do things, right? Uh actions yield results. Um you have to do things for other things to kind of um come up in front of you. Um and yeah, it's just a testament to that uh your story. Um and that's wonderful. I mean, like Developer DAO has done uh wonders for many many people similar to yourself, myself as well. I host a podcast now, I never would have thought I'd be hosting a podcast like three, four years ago. So it's like like you just do things and things happen. So I love it, man. Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah, that's um a great segue actually um into uh all things Shaga. Um I'm really curious I've been following your progress um for for a bit uh this platform is really cool. Um but I'll let you do the explaining here like uh what is Shaga, um what problems does it solve, and uh you know why did you found it?

Yeah, yeah, so uh appreciate that. You know, Shaga, a little bit of lore, stands for shared gaming, right? Uh in its origin story really starts with my co-founder, Guido. He's a young guy, brilliant, um he's like one of those mad scientist type geniuses and so he had this idea back in college like he wanted this gaming PC but he couldn't afford it and he was like, 'Man, I wish I could just like have a gaming PC and rent it out while I'm in class or something and make money for it to be able to pay for it'. And so with that, fast forward, he was doing this hackathon um and it was 2023 Solana Hyperdrive and he locked himself in his room for like 30 days straight and he built this MVP. And while he was building it, I had actually came across um his his project on Twitter, right? It was super rough, super bare bones, um but I know my buddy Jonas from Solana Solana, he's a developer on the gaming side, and he retweeted it and I saw it and I was like, 'Wow', instantly like I loved it, right? Because I've been a lifelong gamer, gamer has been a huge part of my family, right? Like gaming at my dad's barber shop, gaming at home, gaming with friends and all this stuff. And I was like, 'Man, I just want to be a part of this and help and cheer this guy on'. So I reached out to him and I wrote this like 10-page document, like in this very room a couple of years ago, and I just sent it to him like, 'Hey, here I want you to succeed. Um here's everything like you could kind of think about: market, blah blah blah, competition'. And he actually invited me to have a conversation. I was I was surprised, right? Like I was like, 'Okay'. Um and he was like, 'I actually you know, this is what Shaga is, this is the vision, blah blah blah, and I actually want to see if you want to join me as a co-founder uh as a COO and co-founder'. I was I was really surprised, right? Because at that time, I didn't know what I was doing with my time. I was just being this uh kind of like resource in the ecosystem doing free office hours for a year. I had just came off getting uh laid off from my previous job at Metaplex after they downsized. And I was just contracted here and there. So I didn't know what was next, but I knew I really believed in this guy and I was like, 'Okay, let's do it'. I just took a chance, like I always do. And you know, somehow some way with um the technology that he built and with the technology that it is, it is this pretty much rebirth of cloud gaming uh at the fundamental level where in today's world, you have these data centers that are you know bulky, cumbersome, and the issue is they're not always the closest that they need to be to these gamers who want to tap into these cloud gaming services because they can't afford these gaming PCs which are expensive or the latest and greatest game, etc. And so what they do have are phones and tablets, low low-spec laptops, desktops, so they want to tap into these services like Nvidia GeForce Now. But data centers today aren't always available to them either, again, they live they're too far from these gamers or they don't exist at all. You have places like Turkey or Kazakhstan who don't have any data centers, right? And then you have um you know the age of AI where training and inference and all that stuff is prior- being prioritized over cloud gaming. So there's like these blackout dates uh for these gamers. And so with that, um we are pretty much making the gamer who has a gaming PC the data center. We encourage them to be the cloud themselves. And so with that, they can connect to gamers and service them in their local area and it creates this way better experience by lowering the latency, increasing the visual fidelity and with that, we're able to do some really cool things on the technology side. Um but at the end of the day, like we took all that, packaged it up, we were able to raise from uh co- two co-founders of Solana, Anatoly and Stephen Akridge, uh the godfather of DePIN, uh Amir Haleem, who founded Helium. Um and just like some other amazing folks and uh firms out there like Arca and IOSG, it's been really really amazing to see like the reception. But yeah, man, it's been really cool.

Yeah, and it sounds really cool as well. Uh so is the premise that um if I have a gaming PC or something, um I down- I uh install the the Shaga software um and do I have to host games myself for other people to be able to play, or um how does how does that work?

Yeah, so here's the here's the short of it. There's two sides of this. You have the uh streamer who who has a node, right, this gaming PC, and this streamer, they download the software from the Microsoft store onto their gaming PC. They sign up or sign in and with that, we scan for the available games that they have, either via the Steam Store or Epic Games Store. And with that, they can then create a lobby after they choose a game. They create a lobby and they can invite people into that lobby to game either with them or those folks who can game by themselves. And so with that, we have this really amazing uh ability to pretty much create this like bring back the LAN party type of vibe, right, where you know your friends don't own this game or the gaming PC and they're able to do like offline co-op with you, play FIFA or you know, we even have technology to where if you're ever playing a game at a friend's house, they died and it was your turn, you know, we can we can do this thing called controller rotation where, you know, folks can then pass the controls and you both are playing this single-player game, right? Which is now this multiplayer experience. Um so so yeah, that's that's pretty much how it is. And then on the other side, you have these gamers who download uh the client application from iOS or Android store and um they sign up or sign in and they're able to join or request to join a lobby and play that game from their device. So that's how it works.

Interesting, interesting. And uh I guess have you guys kind of considered or thought about like uh how this would look like if people were to install the the Shaga software on like existing Xbox consoles, for example? Uh cuz like I I think I think consoles themselves are are kind of on the way out and cloud gaming is is the way of the future, like I'm sure you think as well. Um so there's eventually going to be these consoles that people have lying around um that can push some pretty heavy-duty graphics. Um so have you guys thought about that at all or?

Yeah, yeah. So that was actually a very early on uh kind of thought exercise, right? And the the thing that it came down to was, you know, there's too many policies and warranties and things of that nature where if somebody were to download this stuff onto that onto that console, it might void everything and uh it would just be too cumbersome. Um but there are apps that have facilitated like game streaming and whatnot. But I think with with us and sort of the experience that we're trying to create, there has to be a certain level of um power that this this device can output and then there's also, you know, resourcing and and inspecting things out and building those things. So we we knew what we were able to build in like really knock it out of the park um and deliver on and that just wasn't something that felt like a strong area for us to do. Uh but at the same time, you know, I think with Xbox, right, their whole approach of you know this is an Xbox, that is an Xbox, everything is an Xbox. We pretty much are in the same kind of boat where everything is a a Shaga, you know, node, right, like or a Shaga client. So we I don't know, I I don't think that there is really going to be this like future where consoles are what we see as they are now. Um but there might still be some form of console because people are just so fanatical about consoles and they love their consoles, um that they're just going to continue to evolve and evolve and evolve and who knows, one day we might see Shaga on a console or some other sort of like uh gaming station uh to where we can provide the service to folks. So yeah.

Yeah, great answer. Great answer. Uh yeah, my my my bet is that um we'll see like cloud gaming predominantly on like handhelds uh cuz you get that portability and then like the Steam Decks of the world will evolve as we keep going forward too. But You know what's funny? Um we actually there's this I got I got to send you this link where there's a there's a there's a streamer um who has been really gaming hard on Shaga and he uses this little um device. It's like a Retroid. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. And he's been gaming on it and it's like this like miniature kind of Steam Deck thing and it's super cool that he's able to game on that. We don't know how he set it up, but that's just what our community has been doing, they're kind of surprising us. But uh but yeah, uh I don't know if I can like share my screen if if that matters or um but I sent you the link and yeah you could check that out. Yeah yeah, for sure.

Uh I guess um since we're we're close to time, uh I did want to also touch on the the Web3 blockchain aspect of things as well. Uh you did mention um you're pretty heavily backed by the Solana community. Like um why why did you choose Solana as your underlying uh infrastructure for blockchain?

Yeah, great question. So for for us, for me personally, I'll start there. For me personally, you know I've been in the Ethereum ecosystem and I've been kind of all over, right, to all these different chains. I explored very heavily um in like the early 2020s. And so with that, I kind of got a taste of what was like out there. And so um once I hit the Solana ecosystem though, this was like back in 2020-2021, it was just like an experience unlike any other. Uh you know, it was super it was super it felt super user-friendly. Um it felt like it was ready for uh you know, millions of people to use it. It was so fast, it was so easy to transact. You know, I was I was being I was able to do so many things with so little. And from there, you know I got entrenched in that community, I've then built my career in that community at Metaplex, I then have all these connections that I were I was able to garner and be lucky to uh garner. Um but it's not just that. You know, my co-founder and I both have experienced this where the developer focus and the developer-led uh just strategy that the Solana community and Solana Foundation and such have taken, uh it really let builders, you know, build for all of these different problem sets and and challenges and really come together. I I haven't really seen a community coalesce in the way that Solana has. Um and the consumers, I I have just never seen such a um voracious appetite for what's coming next or what's happening and just like all of this energy. Um even when it hit you know kind of this like bottom with FTX. I still remember where I was on FTX. And just like seeing everybody like stay in it and rally from that to where Solana is now. You know, I I wouldn't trust any any other uh you know chain to give us the same sort of sense of home um and with that, you know, it just made so much sense. And to be able to like be in that position where everybody was even VCs like, 'Hey, you got to divest from Solana, go move to this chain', um and then now we're seeing like inflows of hundreds of millions of dollars on the regular and all these users and active wallets. Uh the attention's here, the technology's here, the scalability's here. Um so it it was just a combination of all of those things that that really made us feel like Solana was home. Um but the interesting thing about Shaga is, you know at the end of the day, even though Solana is home, that's where we'll do you know our TGE, um it's ultimately an agnostic platform, right? If all it takes is a simple integration and we could be live on, you know, Polygon or Sui or uh whatever, right? Aptos and Ronin. Like it just takes the developers, you know, doing that to make those games on those chains available. And then also, we're not just a Web3 platform as well, but we also have the ability for folks to play Web2 games, right? That's why we call ourselves this like layer 2 for Twitch because we have these gamers and these streamers who are playing games like Call of Duty, Fortnite, blah blah blah, able to play these games using the power of Shaga and not have to worry about you know transactions or anything like that. But if you do have a game like Star Atlas who's a partner of ours, um we're able to facilitate that just as easily. So it's really cool.

Understatement, understatement. Uh it is really cool. Uh and I guess um as we're as we're nearing time, um is there anything um that you can share around the roadmap for Shaga, like what's coming up uh the rest of this year?

Yeah, yeah, so you know right now what we've done is we've launched um and one of the things that I want to just speak to really quickly is we launched um in about March near the end of March or beginning of March and with that, you know we came out of the gate with you know hundreds of uh nodes coming online, tens of thousands of hours of streaming hours um and then we also hit like a half a million signups and users and then 300,000 of those users was connected wallets. Uh and we saw some other amazing things like being uh live and having usage in over 170 countries. And that was just a month, right? So we're we're super bullish on like what we're doing. Uh it feels great and we also have this campaign going right now in partnership with Star Atlas where we're giving away up to $100,000 in prizes to streamers where all you do is you come in, you game um and you let one of these viewers that you have uh take advantage of the controller rotation where they take over your controls and they are playing the game. And we're seeing some really cool things with that. Um you can see it on our Twitter where streamers like have their hands up and these g- their viewers are like playing the game either guiding them through it or like just doing it's crazy. Um so what we're trying to do is fuel more of these moments to happen. So we're looking at more availability on different clients. Uh we have the Saga phone client coming up, uh so we are going to release that. We have designs on doing uh low-spec laptops and Mac uh apps as well. So we're already on iOS, Android. Um so we're looking to get into the and Mac and such uh and then some other stuff for our roadmap is being able to do like window selection, window capture, so you can pick the window for a gamer to connect to your lobby and stay in uh so they don't see your like whole screen or whatever the case may be so you can have that level of privacy um and security. And then also we're obviously like running towards TGE here in Q2 so we're super excited about that. There are some other amazing features coming um I could go on and on. We have some cool things coming for streamers where we're pretty much rebuilding the front of Twitch where our network explorer uh which houses all these hundreds of thousands of users, your stream could like be mirrored to that and gamers and people can discover you on on our explorer. So it's really cool, man. I'm excited.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like it's going to be quite an action-packed uh rest of the year for Shaga, which is wonderful to hear. And and I guess um if people want to get in getting in on the action, um how can they get started?

Yeah, super simple. Um you can download our applications at shaga.xyz and that's S H A G A . x y z. Um you can also follow us on Twitter on @PlayOnShaga, P L A Y O N S H A G A. Right, so either of those two things um you can come and follow us on Twitter and learn about or X and learn about you know the latest and the greatest or you can go to our website download the applications and if you need help, you can always join our Discord. Uh those links you'll find those on both platforms. But that's how you can get in on the action. Take part in this creator campaign, uh get these prizes, you have until like May 7th to make a submission um and then also outside of that, we have our points program going on because TGE is coming, so you can earn these things called 'Glow Points'. And with that, you know, we're just trying to make this a rewarding and fun experience. I think we have one of the most normie-friendly uh consumer applications in all of Web3. Uh it's just a, you know, uh little little horn toot, right? Toot the horn, that's right. Yeah. So come in, join us, um we're looking to learn, grow, and just like have fun. So uh always open to feedback and and seeing new faces. So that's that's it.

Excellent, wonderful answer. And uh folks watching us live here, um all that um is in the YouTube description below, um as well as if you're watching on uh X, uh the @PlayOnShaga handle is tagged, so definitely give them a follow as well as Daeshawn. Uh and with that, uh unfortunately that brings us to time. Uh Daeshawn, this was a wonderful conversation. Uh thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on the show today. Like, thank you for having me. I was super super amazed and humbled to get that invite. So appreciate you. Uh and keep keep this up. We need this. Yeah. Oh thanks man. Appreciate it. Yeah. We'll do. As long as people keep building cool stuff, I'll keep hosting the show. So yeah. Um and uh with that, for folks who have uh watched us live today, uh I'm dropping a link to uh the Bitbadges URL for DevNTell for you to claim uh your collectible, your uh on-chain collectible for indeed watching us live. So if that's your type of thing, definitely check that out. Um and with that, I just want to wish everybody a very happy Friday, happy weekend wherever you may be. And we'll catch you back here for another great episode of DevNTell next week. Until then, cheers.