Escaping Founder-Led Everything with Javier Lozano, Jr. : Helping Tech Founders Install Simple Growth Systems

GM, GM! Welcome to what's going to be another fantastic episode of DevNTell. So if you didn't know, DevNTell is a 30-minute podcast held every week, allowing founders, hackers, and anyone in between the opportunity to come on the show and showcase what they built. And today I'm ecstatic to welcome Javier Lozano Jr. So if you didn't know, Javier is a fractional CMO, CRO who helps B2B tech and tech-enabled service companies build predictable, scalable go-to-market strategies. So if you stick around for today's episode, you'll get to meet Javier, learn some tips and tricks around go-to-market, and maybe even some surprises. All right, let's get into it.

GM, GM! Welcome to the show, Javier. I'm excited to have you on today, man.

Yeah, me too. I really appreciate this opportunity, Narb. It's going to be really fun to kind of just dive into some marketing stuff.

Of course. Yeah, yeah, go-to-market and marketing, it's a really, really big topic. I think it's always been, but I think even more so today given how easy AI is making builders out of basically everybody. But I guess before we get into all that fun stuff, would you just like to give a intro about yourself?

Yeah, so, as you mentioned, I'm a fractional CMO/CRO, so I work with founder-led or CEO-led companies that are in the startup phase to growth stage phase, probably anywhere from about a million to fifteen or so. And they're just looking to start aligning marketing and sales. They don't really have any kind of ways of creating predictable pipeline, they are struggling with aligning marketing and sales, there's fingers pointing, there's no true strategy or go-to-market motion that they can lean into. And so I come in and I build that foundation for the team. And so really, you know, my goal is to really start helping these founder-led companies start kind of getting them at that baseline and then they can start adding on team members where they can start, you know, holding them to more accountability because they have something to work off of. So I've been in the marketing world for quite some time, started my first company back in 2008 and exited that company in 2018 and then basically kind of worked my way into marketing. So I take marketing from a different role, I came through sales. So I was a very good salesperson back in the day and so I really have, you know, used that to help me create the right kind of conversation with sales and marketing and find alignment there.

Amazing. And I researched a bit about your background, you're also a world champion in karate if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, yeah, crazy! Take us through that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. So basically I started doing martial arts when I was ten. So I'm going to date myself here. I got inspired because of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And so, you know, like every kid at that age is just like, I want to do that. And basically just started doing that since I was ten years old, got a black belt and then started competing around fifteen or so, and was not very good at the regional, national scale. So then, you know, I had to start putting more time into it. And eventually won a world title in 2000, won a state title in Colorado in 2001. Was, you know, doing pretty well there and had a kind of like a life goal, if you will, of opening a martial arts and fitness studio, which I ended up doing in 2008. And I thought I'd be doing that until I was like sixty-five, you know, and just kind of like walking around with a cane. But, you know, I guess business and go-to-market, how kind of changed that and I found my new desired passion in what I'm doing now.

Awesome, man. And do you think kind of that experience in sports kind of helped you build a foundation to kind of springboard you into the startup scene and really kind of build those foundational skills?

100%. I would attribute a lot of my success in my career just from working my way up to, you know, becoming a leader because of my martial arts background. I mean, everyone considers martial arts this whole like discipline thing, and it is that, I think that's all sports in general. But the thing that I kind of learned a lot from it too was that when you're competing and you're fighting, you have to make really fast decisions. You have to start, you know, pivoting and shifting and changing strategies and approaches and you don't have time to think about it. And so that's in my opinion in business, it's you have a little bit more time. But that kind of shaped how I approach my go-to-market kind of strategies in a way and has really, you know, given me that tenacity to never give up. And so I really bring a lot of that competitive feeling that I, you know, had whenever I was competing in my younger days into business. And so I bring that, that just like, I've got to win, we've got to win, we're going to win, we're going to be the best, we're going to do all this. And it's something that a lot of folks probably undervalue, in my opinion, because sometimes you just look at business as business, but whenever you have a competitive background, you all of a sudden you look at business a little differently from other lenses.

Yeah, 100%. I agree. I mean, I mean, in the business landscape it's like survival of the fittest for lack of a better term. So if you're not competitive by nature, it's very likely probably not going to make it or maybe not make it as far as you could have. So yeah, I 100% agree and lots of lots of sports kind of help facilitate that, that drive. So that's awesome, man. Do you still, do you still practice karate?

No, I don't. You know, it's funny because when I sold the studio in 2018, I had lost passion by that point and I never really saw myself maybe getting back into it. And so every now and then my wife will ask me, she's like, so are you thinking about ever like training again? I'm like, I don't have a passion for it. I don't have that same desired drive. And so no, I don't see it. And, you know, I've got two kids and I've not influenced them into the martial arts whatsoever. My daughter, however, is in dance and so that kind of like, I'm not going to say overlaps in martial arts, but has a lot of similarities because it's an individual kind of sport. And so it works really well there and then my son is into basketball and cross country. But, you know, that a little different, but then there's other similarities in there. So I try to bring my what I've learned in my background, you know, and just kind of like inspire my family, my kids to kind of use that for their own calling, if you will.

That, that's how it should be done. Awesome, awesome to hear. Yeah, I guess transitioning from the world of karate into go-to-market now. I guess, from your experience in the startup scene and kind of going through the trials and tribulations yourself, I guess what are what are some of the more common pitfalls a lot of founders kind of go through while trying to build up their own businesses?

I would say one of the the biggest ones is trying to do too much or trying to have too many go-to-market motions all at once. They are coming at this from a, but we can do this and our product does that and we can solve all these things. And they go to market with all of it, you know? And and so how I like to kind of explain this is is like, you know, take a step back for a second and look at, you know, HubSpot as an example. You know, they offer several products at the moment, but when they kind of first came to the scene, they only had one hub, you know, and then they kind of started creating more, you know? And Apple was the same way as well too and and there's a lot of big products that kind of did that. And the way I want to explain this for founders is is that you want to find something that is where you can almost guarantee a success. And you you see yourself saying like, man, like we have this sales motion and it's working, even our worst salesperson tends to like close it. Um, like it's just it's just working really well. So a lot of founders what I see is they they just go into to market too with too many things. I was talking I had a client in the construction technology space and they had like a product that was like eight modules, if you will, and they're going to market with all eight. And and some people probably getting confused. And so when I start to go, what's the one that you close all the time on? They're like, well, it's this one. Okay, well, why aren't you just selling that? He's like, why would we do that? We could do all these other things. It doesn't matter that you can do all these other things. Like what matters is that you can solve this one problem really well for this one, this one client and then you offer them something else three months into the agreement because they're they're so happy they're ecstatic. And so that's kind of how you want to look at it is is not go to market and confuse your audience. When you confuse your audience they struggle, you know? Um so yeah I mean that's a big one I've got some other ones you know that I can kind of dive into but like if you want to unpack that a little bit too.

For sure. Yeah, I mean, the biggest, the biggest, or the most common one I see a lot of the time is you go to somebody's landing page and then the the the hero the hero section, their one-liner around what they do is um often not clear. Um it might be clear to them because they might understand the jargon that that's in it or like what they do, but if you if you can't show it to like your mom or your dad or or somebody non-technical for example and not have them understand, you probably are confusing a majority of your potential customer base, hey?

Yeah, 100%. I'm glad you brought that up because that's something else that I I talk a lot about too when I when I start working with founder-led companies is that um your website within five to ten seconds, max ten seconds, someone should be able to know what you do, how to contact you, and how you're going to like fix their problems instantaneously. And they can't be thinking about it because like your brain naturally has this fight or flight kind of mentality. And so if like if you can't figure something out you're like, ah, I've got to get away from this. This is too much work. I can't think this through. And so it's always important to kind of start as you're building this out, figure out what your positioning is. And your positioning will shift as as you're growing your business. It will shift, it will it's supposed to, you know? Like six months into it it might be one thing, twelve months into it it might be something else. That's okay because you're maturing to the market. But you want to make sure that you're talking to your audience and it's very easy for them not using the jargon, not using the the industry tech terms and and stuff like that. Like I get messed up in those kind of things when I'm talking about, you know, all these acronyms and stuff like that, like what CAC is and MRR and ARR and and people are like, what the hell are you talking about? So it's really important to talk like, sad to say this, to people like in a third to fifth-grade level. So it's very easy to understand and they get it.

Yeah, I I 100% agree. And um on the topic of of talking to people, uh talking to the audience, I guess um another one that I see quite often is um people not really talking to their customers, learning like how they use your product, what different types of things they might want. Um and comes to your earlier point of like someone might have ten different things their company does, but like probably nine out of the ten aren't very useful, but once you start talking to people like, oh, you actually want this thing. I never thought you'd want anybody would want something like this.

Yeah, you know, I I feel as though like, I mean, we're in the tech space, we're all thinking about ways to create our moat. Like how can you make this moat bigger and bigger and bigger? You want to know one way is talking to your customers, knowing exactly what they want and giving them what they want and then let and then using those words that your customers are using. Oh like how they, you know, express themselves, what they're saying, all that, using that to describe what your product and service has to offer. That becomes your moat because no one else can duplicate that. That is that is basically your your business's personal experience and that's something that like even AI can't duplicate that, you know? Like it's just an experience that a human has. And so in my opinion is is taking the time to talk to the customers, but not just that, taking the time to implement those things and making sure that you let the world know about it and then you let the world make the decision if they love it or they hate it.

Yeah, yeah exactly. Exactly. Uh I've seen many of the many of the people who um build their company in public kind of go through that and they just naturally gain the virality of like oh hey I demoed this thing, this is what it does and then all of a sudden you have this like um the world has accepted kind of your product. Um but um yeah I'm curious to kind of hear um how you took uh one of um one of your former companies that you were CMO at Ratemate, um how you helped them scale um from a million to I think twenty million the the figure was. Um I guess could you just kind of take us through that journey and some of the things that you caught and and kind of uh righted the ship? Yeah.

So, you know, I came in right when things were kind of slowly taking off. Um and a lot of the times when a CMO comes in they want to blow everything up. They want to fix the headline, change the website, change the messaging, change the positioning, and just blow things up. I didn't do that. I was actually like, let's leave everything alone and let's see what's working and not working and understand better. And so one of the biggest ones is that, you know, we were generating two and three-dollar leads. And, you know, the CEO at the time was like, this is amazing, you know, we're getting three-dollar leads. And I'm like, yeah, but like if we're not closing these, like who cares? And so what we started noticing is is that we were and this was there was an agency that was a part of the company or that was hired before me and and so I, you know, was overseeing all that. They were putting all their budget towards Google and very little budget towards Meta. As I was kind of seeing what we were closing, about 15% of what we were closing was coming from Meta. So for every 100 leads we generated, only 85 I'm sorry, only 15% of those were actually our ICP. The other 85 were just basically garbage. And so what we started noticing was like, you know what? Let's see like what their close rates are on these like 15%. And they were astronomical. So then what we started doing is we started shifting the budget over from Google to Meta. And it, you know, in about three, four, five months, it basically transitioned to where for every 100 leads, 95% of those were getting into our ICP. That increased our close rate from like 15% to 60% or more depending on the month. But the that was one of the big critical movements is like we changed when we saw that, then we started working on our messaging, then we started working a little bit more on our positioning, then we started kind of adding a different motion in different areas. So it was really getting the targeting right is understanding who that audience is and who we're trying to capture and then seeing where they were coming from and what was working. Other part was having that conversation with sales. Is really just having this ongoing conversation with sales and so the SVP of revenue and myself, we were very tight. We we literally met on a daily basis. We weren't having like scheduled meetings all the time, but we we always talked, we brainstormed, we dropped ideas and whatever. But we had a very tight relationship and if there was going to be a new shift or a new movement or new strategy, we always hashed it out together. 99% of the time we were very aligned. Um the other part is I had a great strategic alliance with our CTO. And that's really important as a marketing leader as well too because I could come up with things I'm like, Sean, I need to I want to do this, this, and this. He's like, well, do what you can and then I'll start putting everything together after that. What's important there is that you've got to find your your people that are going to help you achieve what your goals are, you know, to move the company forward. And so you've you know sales and marketing alignment, huge. And that's one of the biggest successes I was able to have there. The technology alignment, even better because I knew what I wanted to do and this was before AI exploded to what it is like what you and I know it right now. But this is where, you know, we were able to kind of build certain, you know, like certain motions in our lifecycle marketing that was like this is insane, I can't believe this is working. And so it was just really exciting to kind of see that. So I would say that part and then just really building the right story and messaging out there and telling the world and letting people like, you know, publishing press releases, timing different kind of things um in the market, so like if we would publish something, then we would have certain other things published two or three months later, so people always saw that we were growing. We were telling this story that people wanted to be a part of. And so it was it was a little bit of the brand kind of building and a little bit of the demand kind of building.

Fascinating. Yeah, I mean a lot of the time um people kind of get um lost in the sauce of um like not actually understanding the story behind the the marketing. A lot of the marketing is in fact uh storytelling um and like if you are not a good storyteller you you will not do well in in the marketing side of things.

Yeah, it's it's so important and that's the other part too is that like I sometimes feel as though founders they they miss out on that opportunity and I really think that if you can tell the right story, then sales is going to have an easier conversation on the line, you know, unless if it's sales-led growth kind of stuff like, they're going to have an easier conversation, those those are going to convert at a higher clip because people have to relate to it. They have to be like, oh, I get it. Oh, I want to be a part of this. Oh, this is really cool. But if you don't tell the story correctly, then all of a sudden you can really just change the narrative. Um, and it really is just people don't want to be a part of it. And so it's there's got to be someone that that knows how to tell that. Something else that I would add to it too is that if you have a founder that is publicly out there and talking and has a perspective and willing to die on a hill because they have a view different from everybody else, that is huge. And, you know, to your to your followers and listeners like, I would encourage founders to get away from the screen and really start publishing in in a sense of like stand for something. Like be the Steve Jobs, if you will, where you're like you're pissing people off, but like you know that you're going to create a movement. You do that, then your team will be able to piggyback off of that.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. You'll be able to ride the wave, that that tidal wave. Um and this is I guess this is kind of going to get into my next question, but like um a lot of people that come on the show uh or are maybe watching today, they might get their their first initial set of like traction on whatever they've built, maybe make their first dollar. But then they often than not like hit a wall and can't gain that momentum. I guess um from your experience and I guess this might bleed into a bit of what you just what you just mentioned, um but why do you think they they often hit that wall um at the start?

Yeah, so some of those times it's because what they're doing isn't scalable yet. It's it's like founder heroics, you know, or some something blank heroics, you know, like and the idea is that is that they they haven't found the systemization on how to get people to buy on a regular basis. That's a really, really hard thing to do. You've got to have a very operational marketing leader or go-to-market leader that understands that what we're trying to like take things out of that founder's head and how can we actually systemize this thing to where it's duplicatable because, you know, at the beginning founders are going to be able to like pivot on those calls and and and basically make those sales and they're like, damn, we've got product market fit, people are like buying, this is really working, this is amazing. But then as they're getting more and more people, they can't be on all those calls. They can't be, um, you know, be there to try to pivot those conversations. And then all of a sudden the founder might be pointing fingers at different salespeople like, well, you need to do better at this. And like when it should be like, what am I doing differently that is making me successful even though I'm not a true salesperson that could probably help my my sales team? You know, or my my other team members. And so that's the part where if you have the right go-to-market leader that understands the operational standpoint of how to systemize things, that's going to help them break through that next level because, you know, call it, you know, million, two million and then you hit a wall, it's because like your your you can't scale what you're trying to do. And once you figure out that that formula of like okay we need 80% automation here, 20% you know human interaction here or whatever that that formula is, then all of a sudden that that gives you like okay I think I think we're finding the the right rhythms.

Right. And and you mentioned that around building um systems. I guess uh you mentioned um that you help teams install these predictable systems that that lead to growth and and solve this notion of founder-led everything. Uh I guess did you want to just get into that, explain what that is and and maybe give a hint at some of these systems?

Yeah, so so you know let me talk you a little bit more like like our lifecycle system that we had at my previous role where it generated about a million and a half to two million dollars a year. And the way it worked was that, you know, we were generating thousands of leads a month, but we only had three salespeople. The issue is that we couldn't contact all of them. You know, like that's that's a lot of contacts, you know, in a in a day-to-day basis on top of like what, you know, whenever you're having actual sales calls. So what we started doing is we started sending out emails and text messages that were literally like they were from their Gmail account, their actual Gmail, like they wrote Tom, you know, whatever. Um the point here is is that we structured them in a way that it would create hand-raisers. And so what that allowed us to do is that it basically let the sales team then focus on hand-raisers first thing in the morning and then start kind of, you know, digging through other opportunities. And so you might be thinking like well, Javier, that's just email marketing. No, no. Email marketing is like literally the marketing emails that get flagged as spam sometimes. So sales emails will inbox at a higher rate. Best example is this is that we had inboxes or open rates in the 40 to 50%. That's unheard of in tech, okay? And on top of that, we had reply rates at certain emails that were like 30 to 50%. Like again, unheard of. Now when we looked at our marketing emails, they were at like 15, 18, 20% open rate, okay? So those are marketing emails. And so that is that little system allowed us to do that. From there if we compressed the sales cycle and we basically um were able to get hand-raisers within seven days. So about 50% of our deals were within seven days. And then 30% of our deals were 31 plus days. Where I'm getting to this is that if they were outside of that 30 plus days, they got recycled to another AE automatically and they started a new conversation from like a new like Gmail account just saying like hey Tom, you know, did you ever end up getting this? So all of a sudden the sales team had new leads, you know? They're new leads, if you will. But the point here is is that like it's it's finding ways in how you can create predictable pipeline where you can depend on these strategies. So that's just one idea, you know, one strategy that we implemented. There's a lot other things but the other part I would leverage into is is that like is finding a wedge that you can literally build off of that allows you to close at a high clip. And so if you offer three or four different services, focus on one and one only. And then we find out the pain the pain points and the problems, create the right go-to-market motions, create the sales enablement, create the strategies around that, and you focus on that and everyone is versed in that and then later we talk about the other things.

Yeah, that I mean that makes total sense when when you explain it that way. And yeah, I mean all like theoretically, um like when like on paper, it it makes sense, but like the actual execution part of it, that's that's the hard part. A lot of people kind of uh get discouraged along the way, maybe is not working the way they want, so they kind of like drop it and and kind of go to their go back into their old habits. I I've seen I've seen it happen uh quite a bit.

Oh, so have I. And I mean, I'm guilty of it. It's it's one of those where like like do I keep going? Like then you have to battle with the CEO and explain why it's taking longer and like there's all these things. And so the idea is that you've got to establish what the goal is. And then you got to make hypothesis before that too. You're going to say hey this is the goal, we hypothesize that this is what's going to happen and we're going to do this in three months or in six months or whatever that is. And you start just kind of working towards that but like you've got to get buy-in and then you've also got to just you're going to have to make wild not wild guesses but educated guesses to make an anticipation on something.

Yeah, and and that's where that systematic um kind of uh view of things and approach to things really um really makes a difference. Um I mean kind of bringing it back to sports, um like if you're if you hit a wall for example in whatever you're doing, you got to change change it up just a bit and kind of um evolve the system to kind of help you get past whatever it is. Yeah, 100%.

However, uh uh we mentioned it kind of early um in the show, but now there is um this wonderful thing called AI um that's in everybody's life. Um just curious uh how you think AI might alleviate or help or maybe not even help um the marketing sector and these founders kind of starting out. Um maybe it's like a one-person company now or two-person company? How do you see it kind of working?

I you know I love AI. It's it's amazing, it's a blessing and a curse in the same time, you know, because it's it's helping teams move more efficiently, move more quickly, um but then at the same time, you know, it's we're still in the we're like in the early innings of of of AI in a sense as well too, where we're almost leaning too heavy on it and I feel as though it is giving poor experience or poor views of like what the company's about. So I think it's a balance, you know, I don't think there's I don't know if there's a right formula. I don't know if there's a right answer. But you've got to have your pulse with your clients, you've got to have your pulse with the audience to know what they want. And so where I love it is automation. It helps so much, um creating tools where like man this would be really cool if I could do this, this, and this. And then all of a sudden you go into Claude code or Codex or whatever and like you're just like, you know, vibe coding this thing and then you're like seeing like holy shit this is actually like coming out to this and and it kind of works. And so those are all really amazing things that I think AI is doing. Um where I think it falls short is and I alluded to this earlier is the actual human experience because the human experience is literally what you and I go through, what your audience go through in the day-to-day basis and sometimes that experience isn't actually exposed into the world, like that experience isn't shared. And so if it's not shared, the AI can't really find it. And so that's something that we want to like either you share it or you throw your authenticity out there. I don't want to use that cliché word, but like your true who you are, what you've experienced, like that feeling, that changes a lot of things. And so I think it's a matter of finding the balance and and every company will be very different how they do it.

Yeah, I think you hit the the nail on the head there. Uh I mean there's like myself as well, I've built a bunch of automations and tools to to help out with managing the this very podcast um and uh maybe those become products in themselves, they solve a problem for me, maybe they solve a problem for someone else. Um but yeah, that that really that human side of it, um at least for me, I've seen so much AI output and and I work a lot in the AI space, so my eye is quite trained on like knowing when somebody has used AI for some copy or like, you know, some email something that like uh Claude or or ChatGPT has made. Um but yeah, I mean the lines aren't blurred quite yet, uh at least for for like the well-trained eye. But maybe in the future, um these models will be trained on a more of these human experiences that that you mentioned and maybe then maybe then we can't tell who's who.

Yeah, and you know to kind of add to that too is like, you know, when I'm looking at fractional role, because sometimes I'll kind of search around and you look at some of these questions you're like why are you asking this question? Like if you just go to my LinkedIn profile you'll know more about me, or if you listen to some of my podcast episodes you'll know more about me. So I feel as though this also goes to like the company itself because like people will like will use AI to make their like their whatever they submit a lot easier, whatever. But like you should also be adding the human element of like you know what? I don't want AI stuff coming to me. I want like do they have any any any proof that they've done this? And can they show me what that is? Like ask that because all of a sudden you've got human experience right now versus literally me throwing it into Claude and say hey write this up to answer this question, you know my personality. You know like if you don't want that, then ask a better question, you know?

Yeah, 100%. 100%. And um as as we're coming to to time here, uh I wanted to give you an opportunity uh to kind of maybe share some maybe some advice uh from from all your experiences as a founder yourself and helping startups um for the aspiring founder or or just starting out founder watching today. What's maybe one or two key pieces of advice um you'd you'd want to give them?

Yeah, I love what you touched on earlier and I want to kind of um hit this again is is like building in public. That's huge as a founder. Um share your wins, share your losses, share your pivots, but just build in public. You know, publish and put stuff out there. The other one that I'm very like bullish on is ship at 60, 70, 80%. Ship it. Just ship it because even though it may not be 100% at where you want it, your audience might be like this is like the best thing I've ever seen and it's hitting 90% of their needs. And so I would say ship more, ship fast, and ship often and let your audience dictate on how quickly you should be pivoting or changing. Because because the more you ship as a founder-led company, you're doing more than those bigger companies that are 50 million, 100 million because they are a freight train, impossible to pivot and turn. But when you're shipping constantly on a weekly basis, all of a sudden things change. And so I would encourage that for sure.

Beautifully said. And yeah, I 100% agree. Uh ship and uh showcase it publicly. Um maybe even on this podcast. Exactly. Exactly. Um and uh yeah, uh for for people following along uh with us today, um what's the best way to follow along with you? Uh I know you also have your own podcast, so uh feel free to plug away.

Yeah, no, definitely. So I'm I'm heavy on LinkedIn. Uh so you can find me on LinkedIn. Um I believe I'm the only Javier Lozano Jr. So you can do a search, connect with me. I actually respond to my DMs. Um, you know, so that's a big one and then I have a podcast called Predictable B2B Growth, uh where I just really share more strategies and tactics on creating more predictability in your business. And so like these conversations, I'll start breaking down like double-clicking on a couple of things and and really sharing that or, you know, just building some different stuff from there. So those are the two places and then I know in the show notes you'll probably add in here too, but you can go to my website boldermediasolutions.com. I've got some pretty cool free content on there as well too. Um and I've got my old um Beehiiv subscriber list uh where I share a lot of my strategies on there too. So you know those are the places where you can connect with me.

Excellent. And yes, uh like you said, um all of those details will be in the description of the podcast. So definitely uh check that out. And with that, Javier, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day to come chat with us. Uh I really enjoyed our combo. Uh I know our audience uh did as well. Um and uh yeah, uh wishing wishing you a very happy rest of the Friday and happy weekend. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, and same to you, audience. Uh wishing you a very happy Friday, happy weekend wherever you may be and we will catch you here next week for another great episode of DevNTell. Till then, have a good one folks. Cheers. Have a good one.